What is your main reason for not paying with bitcoin? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

What is your main reason for not paying with bitcoin?

11.3k sats \ 105 comments \ @hynek 18 Jul 2023 bitcoin

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486 sats \ 4 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 18 Jul 2023

Taxable event

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @ewok 18 Jul 2023

exactly. if the bill passes where purchases under $200 are tax free, I'll be using it daily wherever accepted

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 18 Jul 2023

Thank you for mentioning this. I was not aware.

I found this article that explains it: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/02/03/us-lawmakers-reintroduce-bill-to-provide-tax-relief-for-small-crypto-transactions/

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19 Jul 2023

Only if your coins are kyc or the merchant knows your identity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @aoeu 19 Jul 2023

I rarely find places that accept bitcoin (yet) but if I do I get around the taxable event issue by using Strike. This goes straight from USD to their lightning address so there is no taxable event on my side. Also, prevents me from using my own bitcoin, though if I do that I just spend and replace.

382 sats \ 4 replies \ @2bithits 18 Jul 2023

I spend on occassion, but the main reasons i dont are:

I don't have enough bitcoin for my whole family.
Its not accepted.
It is not ready to be spent as a medium of exchange (getting close though, I give it another 5 years).

103 sats \ 3 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

I don't have enough bitcoin for my whole family.

You can buy more bitcoin

Its not accepted.

Fair point.

It is not ready to be spent as a medium of exchange (getting close though, I give it another 5 years).

What is the issue?

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @2bithits 19 Jul 2023

The issue is that I don't think lightning is ready. Custodial LN like wallet of satoshi is an amazing experience, but its still fundamentally not your bitcoin. Phoenix is good but expensive 0.4%. OBW is great, but has pretty much been abandoned. Blixt... Getting better.

These things take time. They will get better over time with other scaling solutions & improvements to LN

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Absence of good tech solution sounds good to me. I hope that Ark could bring some more accessible non-custodial solutions.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @2bithits 19 Jul 2023

Yes

I mean if we really imagine the future of Bitcoin as a MoE it needs tohave the feel of wallet of satoshi/cashu, but be in your custody & free or almost free to send

213 sats \ 12 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

3 words. Many information. Number Go Up.

22 sats \ 4 replies \ @designsats 18 Jul 2023

That should prevent you paying with fiat too. CBecause its the same situation. You have less BTC

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19 Jul 2023

Why pay 1% or whatever fees to buy BTC with fiat and then pay with it at an unknown premium, if you can pay with fiat directly and get cashback?

But don't worry. More merchants will start accepting BTC in the next bull run, because many people will want to dispose of their sats without going through exchanges, and if there are tax advantages to that (e.g. tax free <$200 purchases), they'll have even more reasons.

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats 19 Jul 2023

Befriend a bitcoin earner and you can have it for 0%

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @designsats 19 Jul 2023

I dont buy BTC.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

Well, if I could photosynthesize I wouldn't pay for food, but until then, I need to survive and have as little comfort as possible. :D However, I live in the philosophy of minimalism precisely because of this.

101 sats \ 6 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Why don’t you buy more bitcoin then?

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

I buy, but I don't spend it. In fact, I pay with bitcoin, but in some specific conditions as I said here #204545. :)

1 sat \ 4 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Sorry but you didn’t answer why don’t you buy more? 🙂

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

Oh, sorry. I don't buy more because a I don't have any money left. Everything that I don't spend in day by day, I use to buy more.

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Ok. That means you are saving, right? But when you purchase something you use bitcoin since you have no fiat anymore?

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

Not really. I pay using credit card. When I receive my salary I pay my credit card from the last month and the rest I buy bitcoin.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Got it. Thanks. I never use credit so I didn’t understand at first.

reply on another page

192 sats \ 1 reply \ @q 18 Jul 2023

No reason, I always asks my friends on routine when I have a debt in ifat if they want payment in bitcoin or cash.

If a website accepts bitcoin I pay with bitcoin.

I always replace with new sats in my stash after spending.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

So you pay with bitcoin. And regarding the stash. Do you try to achieve some ratio between fiat and bitcoin. Or how do you think about that?

157 sats \ 8 replies \ @guts 18 Jul 2023

Getting doxed by criminals.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

I think this is the biggest problem of all.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Wha do you mean by that? Can you elaborate little bit?

114 sats \ 5 replies \ @guts 18 Jul 2023

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks

1 sat \ 3 replies \ @fiatbad 18 Jul 2023

Holy Shit......

That's a crazy list.

But this can happen with any asset class. I don't understand why spending Bitcoin makes you higher risk??

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

How much could you lose if someone robs you and doesn't know you have bitcoins? Probably what you have in your wallet, plus whatever money you have in your account that is highly liquid. How much could you lose if someone robs you and knows you have bitcoin?

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 18 Jul 2023

I understand... but I also don't....

It's just money. People paying for things with fiat at the grocery store is a signal to thieves that they have fiat money. And yet, we don't see people targeted just cuz they spent some paper at a local store.

What if I get paid in Bitcoin, but I'm still mostly working paycheck-to-paycheck? Even if my stack were small, I would still use Bitcoin for transactions, simply because it's more ethical and generally superior money. How does spending Bitcoin alert anyone to how big a stack is?

I was just at a Bitcoin meetup and I'm fairly certain most of the people there had less than 1 BTC in cold storage....

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @KoreaComK 18 Jul 2023

How does spending Bitcoin alert anyone to how big a stack is?

You don't alert HOW MUCH you have, but the act of HAVING bitcoin.

Currently, few people own bitcoin. It being an asset that cannot be censored or stopped makes it an excellent asset that can be forcibly expropriated from a person and passed to the bad guys without you being able to do anything.

In the future, when more people have it, and the fact that you are a bitcoiner does not raise suspicions, that is, being a bitcoiner is commonplace, this will not be a problem and consequently there will be no problem for people to use it more for everyday purchases.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Ok. That’s a good one

56 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 18 Jul 2023

I said this to someone who asked if they could sell their house for more if they accepted Bitcoin for it:

Is your reason for accepting Bitcoin purely to charge more? If you look at BISQ or robosats or any p2p exchange, people pay more for Bitcoin there than KYC exchanges. Even the KYC exchanges charge a smaller premium over spot or a commission fee.

If you look at how much it would cost you to acquire that much Bitcoin, you'd understand why it would make more sense if you were offering a discount if Bitcoin were used. As someone who uses Bitcoin to actually buy things, I can tell you generally speaking discount or not, I'm not enthusiastic to give up my Bitcoin to someone who doesn't want the Bitcoin in the first place and is just going to convert to dollars. I'd rather just give you what you want in the first place which I don't value.

If however, you do value Bitcoin, I feel the need to add you to my network. In other words, you've gained a recurring customer who will market on your behalf.

67 sats \ 1 reply \ @gnilma 18 Jul 2023

Merchants don’t accept it.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Please ask them so they feel the demand 🙏

146 sats \ 6 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jul 2023

lack of a good reason. I only spend bitcoin when "I have to"

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

What about that you don’t need fiat when you pay with bitcoin?

92 sats \ 4 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jul 2023

yeah, but fiat is cheap shit, I would RATHER spend that these days than bitcoin

149 sats \ 3 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

Why do you have any fiat then?

46 sats \ 2 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jul 2023

i don't think you understand. if people will allow me to pay them manure, rather than gold, why would I give up my gold when manure is...plenty...

111 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

If you pay with manure you need to store manure, transfer manure.. and you will stinck like manure 🙂

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @premitive1 18 Jul 2023

so will the person accepting it as payment, so no big deal

246 sats \ 1 reply \ @DiracDelta 18 Jul 2023

"I am a cuck and I comply with every tax law. Even on Nostr, I am reporting all my zaps I receive as income to make sure I pay the IRS. I obey what the state tells me is the law. I am short bitcoin and hold large amounts of US dollars so I am never in a position where I would feel like spending Bitcoin -- I just learned about Gresham's law yesterday, and I like thinking what I am doing is incredibly clever and it gives me an opportunity to share this law that I learned -- have I told you how much I love every law?"

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

😅

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @CoSatoshi 18 Jul 2023

The only prevention for me is merchants accepting bitcoin. If they do, I use it. Then I buy more at the equivalent amount or more. Spend and replace.

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 18 Jul 2023

How much fiat you want to keep? ( in %)

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @CoSatoshi 18 Jul 2023

0%, ideally. I do have to keep some fiat on hand for rent, utilities, and groceries, unfortunately. It's probably around 1% of my total wealth.

5 sats \ 6 replies \ @random_bitcoiner 18 Jul 2023

Why fight Gresham's law?

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Have you heard about Thier's law? Gresham's law is only one of the effects. Why don't you pay with grains → you should according to Gresham's law since it have worse properties then fiat.

And when you pay with fiat you force yourself to keep fiat in the future...

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @random_bitcoiner 19 Jul 2023

Who says I keep any fiat around?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

If you have no fiat you have to pay with bitcoin, right?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @random_bitcoiner 19 Jul 2023

Not really. I don't know in what world you live in, but around me nobody takes bitcoin directly. I don't loose my sleep over it though. Whenever I need some cash I just sell some sats and pay whatever I need to.

And yes, because I do it P2P I do need to keep a fiat buffer. But it's a small one.

Would it be slightly better if everybody just took my sats directly? sure. Is it a big issue for me that would lead me to waste precious sats? no.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

My point is that it wouldn't be wasting of your sats. Because you could lower the fiat buffer with every bitcoin payment.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @random_bitcoiner 19 Jul 2023

You might have a point. But mine is that bitcoin should be voluntary. I see little point in trying to shove it down everyone's throat. Sure, it's nice to educate folks, but there are people that will just not change their ways or see things the way we do, and that's fine.

Bitcoin should win on its own merits by having superior traits. In the meantime the best strategy for me is to hold it and spend softer money first. It's holders that give Bitcoin it's value after all. So I see it as a bit unproductive in trying to demonize them/us.

I will spend some sats here and there too. But this is more like charity, there's a component of experimentation too and in some cases, since I already have sats, the experience is actually better. However, I'm under no illusion; these small deeds aren't my primary contributions to the success of Bitcoin. That would be me using it as a savings vehicle.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 18 Jul 2023

It's really difficult to find people willing to accept it. Lately I've been trying though.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Please check the http://btcmap.org/ and participate 🙏

It's very easy to clean the data
Demand the bitcoin payment option from your merchants

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 19 Jul 2023

I have. Nothing in my 'hood. I also don't buy a lot of stuff generally. We have an architect designing an extension on the house; I'm trying to convince her to accept bitcoin.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Mag_Dumps 19 Jul 2023 freebie

Unfortunately not a lot of retailers accept Bitcoin in the U.S. You also create taxable events in the U.S. with any purchases with any crypto as none are recognized as a currency...yet.

You also have to take in consideration, is that a lot of bitcoin holders see the current value of BTC is still in its infancy stage so sadly it makes more sense to spend a fiat currency that continues to lose its purchasing power, rather than an asset that is believed to only increase in value exponentially in the near future.

Personally, i dont see an increase in the spending of BTC for daily purchases until at least salaries are paid in BTC. My dream world is to never have to touch fiat ever again, its a slow sometimes painful process but i do believe most here will see that day unfold.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @chungkingexpress 20 Jul 2023

Not enough merchants accept it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ssaurel 19 Jul 2023

The main reason is that it's not accepted enough in my country. The second reason is that it generates a taxable event every time ...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @criptopanas 19 Jul 2023

Its hard to use BTC when you have the feeling that you don't have enough of it.

But, they way to get more businesses accepting BTC is using it!!!

I'm not having any income in fiat at the moment, so no possible to buy more BTC.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @MastercardMaximalist 19 Jul 2023

i still have fiat and i spend that first.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Buy more bitcoin then

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

I always pay in btc, and actively seek out places to spend it, as well as encourage places to accept it

I consider the use of central bank currencies to be shameful, why feed the beast?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @faithandcredit 19 Jul 2023

I cant

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Why?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @downtownjj 19 Jul 2023

most people dont accept it.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @TheBTCManual 19 Jul 2023

Because fiat is still a good medium of exchange and its rationally the better one to spend in over the short term

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

At what manners is fiat better MoE?

better tech?
acceptance from merchants?
something else?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 20 Jul 2023

Acceptance from anyone not just merchants, I hardly see this as a shocking claim

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @SimpleStacker 19 Jul 2023

Look up Gresham's Law.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

based on greshams law, the best thing you can do is immediately buy good money with your bad money

don't hold central bank currencies

zero fiat!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Exactly

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Look up Thier's Law 🙂

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 19 Jul 2023

Gresham's Law in the short run, Thier's Law in the long run 🤠

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19 Jul 2023

I'm in accumulation phase. No point in selling if I'm buying. Maybe when it hits $1m I'll retire and start selling.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

I have the same question as many times before. Why don't you convert more of your fiat into bitcoin?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 19 Jul 2023

Not sure what you mean. I convert all my fiat I don't need to pay my bills into bitcoin. I can't convert more because I don't have more.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

My point is that if you are trying to #getonzero with fiat it is better to pay with bitcoin (if possible) so you don't have to bear that much fiat. And here I'm trying to understand how other people think about it.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @john_doe 19 Jul 2023

Because where I go daily it is cash only (Bitcoin and credit card not accepted in food markets, and Bitcoin not accepted in Supermarkets).

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Ask for bitcoin payment option 🙂

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @john_doe 19 Jul 2023

Actually I live in South-East Asia and I just know how to say hello and thank you. But even if I knew I would not ask because I don't have SIM card for Internet. On GrapheneOS I would need to enable proprietary code to use a SIM cards AFAIK, so I don't have Internet. For maps I use openstreetmap offline and check everything at home before going out. So my use of smartphones is pretty much offline outdoors, which excludes Bitcoin or anythin which requires Internet. The day we will be able to pay with signatures offline with bluetooth, like what we do with multisig, and hardware wallets will be usable as a means of payment , I will take a look ;)

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @waklaf 19 Jul 2023

You can still use NFC Bolt cards (or rings) but it's even harder to find a merchant who accepts Lightning contactless

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 19 Jul 2023

Amazing, I just saw the ring, it looks cool. I didn't know also for the Bolt cards. Thank you for the reference.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

this is the way!

down with GSM networks.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 18 Jul 2023

Merchants don't actually want bitcoin and even if they did, they wouldn't hodl and find a way to pay their overhead with bitcoin. They just sell it for fiat at point of sale so even if I did pay in BTC, then I just have less bitcoin and the merchant has more fiat.

I will just keep stacking sats and paying merchants in fiat until they want bitcoin more than they want their collapsing fiat currencies.

For now, the best strategy is to stack sats and hodl until the price pumps so high that merchants (and their suppliers) actually want bitcoin.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

that's just false

more than half the merchants in my town keep the sats in BTC

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 19 Jul 2023

That's awesome to hear that your local economy is booming however I am speaking more generically.

Every time I ask a merchant that "accepts bitcoin" if I can pay with sats, they usually don't even know how to do it anymore or don't really have the infrastructure set up and maintained to accept them.

Glad to hear merchants are accepting where you live but almost every time I ask, the staff doesn't know how to accept sats as payment or it's a big technical problem to get it to work.

Looking forward to things advancing.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

I should probably clarify that I am directly responsible for on-boarding most of the merchants in my area

I would recommend starting with smaller, owner operated merchants when orange pilling in your vicinity. And offer to help with the configuration and setup (and support) of their POS system.

Furthermore, to visit regularly and pay with sats so they can see that it's a worthwhile service to keep up.

Once you get to around 10 merchants, start on the bigger stores and restaurants.

A good way to on-board a cafe or restaurant is to host your local bitcoin meetup there, in return accepting sats for one night, and offer to buy back the sats at the end of the evening.

Likely they'll research things and want to keep the sats, and keep accepting them after the event...

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 19 Jul 2023

"A good way to on-board a cafe or restaurant is to host your local bitcoin meetup there, in return accepting sats for one night, and offer to buy back the sats at the end of the evening."

That is probably one of the best strategies I have ever heard of. Thanks so much for your input. I will give this a try.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Nice 👏 Where do you operate? Do you have more information what works good and what doesn't?

63 sats \ 0 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

I find it's best to visit a few times so they can see you are a regular, then bring up the Bitcoin topic

Also helps to show them BTCMap and mention the other businesses in the area

Having a BTC user group really helps as you can literally bring a whole bunch of customers to their door (if they will accept BTC as payment, of course)

In addition, go to a print shop and make some flyers, and stickers, for your newly on-boarded merchant(s). Stick them on BTC Map. And write a trip advisor review for them, mentioning bitcoin!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @drfred 18 Jul 2023

it has no value. extremely undervalued.

for this reason and for losing purchasing power not accepted anywhere here

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ryu 18 Jul 2023

Beyond online services (niche and otherwise) there's no practical way to use it day to day.

Regardless, I would (and plan on) use it as a way to mostly keep your savings yours and keep a fiat account open only for essentials (food, bills, etc.) while having the majority of your money in a cold wallet.

That's before factoring in Lightning for the few online retailers that accept Bitcoin natively and don't use it to swap for goods and services traditionally obtained through fiat (ala Cake Wallet).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @03365d6a53 19 Jul 2023

of course there's a way

build relationships with your local businesses

help them to get off zero

then you can spedn every day

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @muteness11 18 Jul 2023

we are in a hoarding phase simply because hodlers believe BTC's purchasing power will increase dramatically so why pay with it instead of Fiat

I personally use sats to educate and onboard people

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

U can accumulate more bitcoin if you use it for payment. In another words you don't need to have any value in fiat when you don't use it.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OriginalSize 18 Jul 2023

It's the better of the monies I have. I like to spend dollars so I get rid of them. I'm short Bitcoin in that sense but asset allocation is also a thing.

I think it's much healthier to spend when the price is up enough to affect my allocation. If then I spot a bitcoin accepted here sign I won't just buy with bitcoin, I'll offer to sell to them.

What else is such a sign but a signal that the shop owners wish to increase their own allocation?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @hynek OP 19 Jul 2023

Why do you care so much about merchants motivation? You benefit from paying with bitcoin since you don't need to bear any ugly fiat then.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @03e2637c5f 18 Jul 2023 freebie

I know we need to create a circular economy and use it to illustrate that it can be a viable alternative to the corrupted fiat. ... BUT I am so sad for every sat I loose. Despite not having the opportunity in my d2d life, after I spent lightning e.g. for my coffee my FOMO would immediately kick in and get me buying the double amount I just spent </3