Lightning Labs: "BOLT12 offers - when the pigs will fly."

3362 sats \ 48 comments \ @jk_14 21 Aug 2023 bitcoin

BOLT12 offers allows safe reusing QR codes: a static image of QR code for Lightning payments that you can even print on a billboard... The draft was first posted September 2020, and revised heavily since. It was first implemented in c-lightning v0.9.3 released in January 2021. More info: https://bolt12.org/

And that's what LND guys from Ligtning Labs have announced:

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/mSyj6nnBvZhNKvYJPhtb3H3SS-cl9vmVanHH18dGcBU/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly91c2VyLWltYWdlcy5naXRodWJ1c2VyY29udGVudC5jb20vMzkyMDgyNzkvMjIyNzk1MzM3LWU2OWJmZjNkLTJkYjQtNGI4Yi1iNWU1LTc5NTA5MjVkNWI5OS5wbmc

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/5594

Taking into consideration their version numbering, 0.16 is right now and single increase more-less once per year - the Create & Receive of BOLT12 offers will be probably available in LND around A.D. 2026

What is crappy as hell... Move to other implementations (like for example CLN +CLBOSS autopilot) - before it's too late...

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51 sats \ 29 replies \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

Bolt12 is regarded, onion messages are Tor all over again. Slow and unreliable. It won't work without making the network more custodial.

If you think managing payment channels is hard now, comm channels will be 10x worse.

Bolt12 is an attack on the network being pushed by NGOs and shitcoiners... There's no grassroots development, just salaried devs backed with shady funding.

Fortunately LL is sane, might be why it's the only implementation that matters. And they don't have to affinity scam as "Core" to do it 🤣

280 sats \ 1 reply \ @03df1cd585 21 Aug 2023

most stupid comment of the month award

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

That award is reserved for pro Bolt12 comments, by people with no technical understanding whatsover who want it to solve a problem that doesn't exist because some spook on Twitter told them "Bolt12 good"

342 sats \ 16 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

Blockstream and ACINQ are now shitcoiners?

WOW

0 sats \ 15 replies \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

Blockstream has always been den of shit. Do real Bitcoin companies get 100s of millions in VC dollars just to disappear it into a Tether platform? No, but Blockstream does because they're a puppet organization.

If you knew nothing else about them, affinity scamming their client as "Core" is a blatant sign of their hostility.

ACINQ is a great lesson in why mobile nodes are a mistake and will never be viable receiving wallet. Instead of building a great LN implementation, ACINQ instead spent years fucking themselves into a corner with Phoenix.

Now that Phoenix distribution has peaked, LN hype has faded, and competitors like Breeze and LDK move shit to the cloud (predictably)... their efforts in Bolt12 are an sad attempt at mitigating issues with mobile nodes. They're desperate, Bolt12 can't fix those problems, and their Bolt12 work is counter-signal we can learn from.

178 sats \ 3 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 22 Aug 2023

I have yet to see so many ignorant takes all at once on this site. Holy shit congrats, seriously.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlueSlime 23 Aug 2023

he is right that splicing and bolt 12 is peak phoenix, they are peaking so hard rn I can't stand it

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @TonyGiorgio 23 Aug 2023

What are you even saying? Splicing and bolt 12 are game changers for many reasons including more protocol changes to come.

You can sit around speculating about who is the illuminati or boogie man you're afraid of while the rest of us build.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0330830bf9 23 Aug 2023

Cope.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @ryu 21 Aug 2023

Big ups for the Blockstream criticism, piemp. Don't hear too many Bitcoiners or maxis give them the shit they deserve for being the corporation that took over the majority of Bitcoin development, while projecting what they did onto the BCH team.

Everything else is a presumption of the worst case scenario, instead of seeing if things improve or not. I'd wait a bit first.

13 sats \ 6 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

BCH community is the toxiest community on crypto. Nobody did anything to them, all the pain was self inflicted.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ryu 21 Aug 2023

Except for the fact that the guy whose company actually pulled off a corporate takeover of Bitcoin slandered them for "attempting" to do what Blockstream already did.

Say what will about the technical aspects of Cash and the team overall, but Adam Back is the Bitcoin equivalent to Vitalik Buterin: a massive piece of shit that contributes heavily to people leaving Bitcoin.

15 sats \ 4 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

Corporate takeover of bitcoin… Nice try bcasher :) What about Roger and Chinese corporations failed to take over bitcoin and now you have a shitcoin centralized in every level, being used by no one . I prefer that version :)

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ryu 21 Aug 2023

I argue there's utility in any non-Bitcoin crypto that shows its value.

Bitcoin, BCH and two privacy coins (Monero and Pirate) are all I care about. Everything else has fucked me, so I have no interest in it.

You also presume I wouldn't criticize Roger Ver for being very snaky with his "Bitcoin" sites and services. I'd respect him a hell of a lot more if he didn't have a site called "Bitcoin.com" and have it be predominantly about Bitcoin Cash. At the very least, crack jokes the way that community does and call Bitcoin "Blockstream Coin" while still differentiating between it and Cash.

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

Sure , seems legit

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

Par for the course Bolt12 proponent, snark and evasion because your ideas are shit.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

It’s normal to avoid idiots. I see you are getting used to it.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @grnldy 21 Aug 2023

do you believe what you said ?

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @DiracDelta 21 Aug 2023

Bolt12 offers an improvement for the UX of giving someone a tip IRL with a sort of LN style paper wallet, that allows true handoff of key, without a 3rd party LNURL server or the tipper having to be tech savy and running their own server. In particular, it allows non-opt-in bitcoin tipping, which I will engage in -- talking about bitcoin is simply not worth my time and often is impossible if it is crowded. Bonus: the people who choose to not redeem their tips will actually just be sending their tips to the people who do.

Though I did chat with someone who mentioned he was working on a solution to tipping that did not require Bolt12.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @m00ninite 21 Aug 2023

You can do it with vouchers already with Lnbits. Print a bunch out and start dumping them in tip jars.. If they don't get redeemed, they never leave your wallet.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DiracDelta 21 Aug 2023

This requires you to run your own lightning node.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @m00ninite 21 Aug 2023

It was in response to your final comment. I assumed whoever you chatted with may have been talking about an LNURL solution

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

There are better ways to do that without changing the LN spec in a way that makes it less useful.

Nostr specifically has a number of things in draft that are massive improvements over LNURL and completely trustless, but no NGO money or spook influencers want to advance grassroots things.

The absolute state of Bolt12 proponents is that anyone who is against it automatically gaslit as someone against improvement of UX or decentralization.

The opposite is true. We don't want worse UX and more centralization which is all Bolt12 can offer.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DiracDelta 21 Aug 2023

How does nostr help if the recipient doesn't already use nostr? I want to hand someone a piece of paper that allows them to receive LN funds that are not accessible by a 3rd party, and I want it to be easy to generate these pieces of paper, fund them, and recover funds if recipient does not move them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0330830bf9 21 Aug 2023

How does Bolt12 help if they don't already use Bolt12? It's new companion software all the same.

Instead of an offer code that uses some dodgy onion network, an offer that uses nostr keys and relays as transport.

The user doesn't have to have a nostr profile, just their wallet or node software would use it directly.

This is a more sane use of nostr than fake twitter anyway.

Conversely, you could give out paper tips that contain your nodes public key, a secret, and relay... and the person receiving the tip gets it from you directly.

No servers needed, the relays already exist and are compatible with SSL so it works on the web too.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jk_14 OP 22 Aug 2023

"There are a lot of other great improvements here - route blinding (privacy improvement), trampoline routing (simplifying routing for mobiles), async payments (ability to receive payments even when I'm offline), PTLC, a solution to the channel jamming attack, eltoo (although we're waiting for the Bitcoin modification here), etc. Most other implementations work on these in some way. And how does Lightning Labs approach this? What is their roadmap? Completely different, unfortunately..."

#119318

FoRtUNaTeLy LL iS sAnE, LOL

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0330830bf9 22 Aug 2023

Cope and seethe demon

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

At least they will have it on 2026 before they didn’t want to have it

179 sats \ 2 replies \ @eggos 21 Aug 2023

Bolt 12 is a shitcoin

nothing to see here fellas

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @iguano 21 Aug 2023

And you are going tbe using it, unless you want to be a bcasher 2.0 guy.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @eggos 22 Aug 2023

You're a shitcoiner too if you think bolt 12 is do any good for the lightning ecosystem

101 sats \ 5 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 21 Aug 2023

LL has been stonewalling this hard. Progress is being made, but only by external contributors. They refuse to touch it themselves. This is more or less saving face and saying that "progress is being made" essentially taking credit along the way.

I highly doubt there's any meaningful delivery towards the end, but yes I suspect it'll be years before BOLT12 is practically usable.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @calle 21 Aug 2023

This will be ready long before anything is added to LND's core: https://github.com/lndk-org/lndk

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 21 Aug 2023

Yeah but the reality is that it's a lot less likely to get any adoption for it since it's an external binary.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 21 Aug 2023

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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @TonyGiorgio 22 Aug 2023

Basically. And they are against bolt12 at it's core. Some valid concerns around potential spam vectors but there has been enough research into how to avoid them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 22 Aug 2023

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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @chungkingexpress 21 Aug 2023

Can someone ELI5 please the issue with Bolt12 and Blockstream, what are the larger implications?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Muuny 23 Aug 2023

you know the OP, and reply gai's aren't serious when there's no actual technical critique, and just opinions of someone else's opinions. I still haven't heard a technical reason against bolt 12 for the last 3 years.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 24 Sep

Guess again, freaks!

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap 21 Aug 2023

Hope they lose market share fast

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @03df1cd585 21 Aug 2023

We need an API and thunderhub alternative for Eclair. Eclair is really good for enterprises but lacks the API and ecosystem that is built around LND.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 21 Aug 2023

Waiting for Godot

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 21 Aug 2023

Lol Phase 4, Tony Stark gets the logins to the GitHub and instantly snaps and merges BOLT12, super apped insert avengers theme tune

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mo 24 Sep

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