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Why I can and I will keep my LN node fees to zero?
284 sats \ 13 comments \ @DarthCoin 30 Apr 2022 bitcoin
Because some nodes do not want to fuck the banksters but to fuck other bitcoiners. Example here from Alex: https://nitter.net/alexbosworth/status/1520067729151078401
Alex, we are still very early with LN and start to fuck each others at this level will just make the banksters to laugh of how we are fucking each others.
Yes, running a LN node is not easy, is not cheap, but also we still have 7 billion nocoiners out there. If we start screwing them from the beginning, then we will not go to far with this. Nocoiners don't know all the implications into running a LN node, they see only the fees they are charged.
An sometimes insane fees for a simple LN payment, like this one, poor noob was freaking out being charged that insane fee, for a simple tx:
https://i.postimg.cc/8kmxj0JK/muun-fees.jpg
So in response of your tweet, I will run not one but 2 nodes with total ZERO fees for the next 100 years. Why? Because I can, and I want people to transact freely over LN. And like me are many.
WE ARE NOT HERE TO FUCK EACH OTHERS BUT TO FUCK THE BANKSTERS!
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59 sats \ 2 replies \ @arrowdrive 30 Apr 2022
Our main goal when running a routing node shouldn’t be profit. It should be creating a robust and reliable payment network that people want to use. Fees need to be low for people to want to use it.
When I was a noob to LN I was quite turned off at first because I would often incur fees that were much larger that even on-chain transactions for modest transactions between 500k–1m sats. I thought LN was stupid and stopped using it for a while. Luckily I came back to it after learning more and started running my own node with the aim to help grow this network and help keep fees low.
I will also keep my fees either free or very low forever.
The way I see it, is that if LN is successful and it onboards a large chunk of the population, the transaction volume will be enough for a node to be profitable even with very low fees. For LN to be successful we need to keep fees low. We are only hurting each other with high fees and it will slow or even stop growth.
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @jeff 1 May 2022
It's possible that the lightning network, needs to incentivize the pro-bono hobbyist, with an element of gamification, to do it for the long-haul. Altruism might be insufficient. That is, it can't just be the yield on capital that keeps the network incentivized.
If we could reward this zero-fee behavior in an elegant way, that might make the zero-fee behavior more sustainable.
We can't pay for all of this zero-fee labor from transactions. That would just be an increase to fees and the mechanism exists for that. Then it would be a job. But we could extract rent from somewhere else, then route it towards the low-fee hobbyists somehow, in a way that gave them some level of pride (think, "I won the Zero-Fee Lightning Competition 3 months in a row!")
I wonder if we could make a kindof third-layer to bitcoin, that worked something like this:
  1. Create a monthly 50-50-draw*.
  2. People buy tickets, this creates a pot of money (Say, 1 ticket per 1000 sats -- just to start). Could also be a simple charity.
  3. Every month, some time+zero-fee averaging function along with some algorithm that doesn't become an extension of the amount of capital, routes the winning** zero-fee hobbyist (or more likely a set of them) some sats.
It's kindof like, a value-for-value charity to gamify lightning. Sortof.
* This might have to be centralized for bootstrapping purposes, but it could totally be decentralized if the general idea took off.
** I think we can transparently measure this.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 1 May 2022
My main "reward" by running a zero fee node, is that WE FUCK THE BANKSTERS. Once we've done with that, we can start creating an incentive way to run these nodes and not ripping off users.
Like @arrowdrive said, sometimes is much efficient to do a tx onchain than LN. This is just stupid and in special in this phase when we need to onboard as many people we can into LN and make this network to flow a lot of liquidity.
I start in Feb with the "#ZeroFeeFebruary" movement and from then my node increased 10x the number of routed txs. I even wrote an article about that, for each month. And many other users contacted me (and post replies to my article) and thank me for this initiative, their nodes start moving way more txs than before.
I am in contact also with some users from El Salvador, helping them to run their LN nodes. And they tell me: people there are interested into transacting cheap as possible, but sometimes they get ripped off for a simple payment to buy pupusas. And they move away slowly from using LN. IT'S A SHAME that for some sats earned by routing people get so obsessed into "earning sats with routing", their greed grow more and more.
As I said, now in the beginning is time for helping each others NOT TO FUCK EACH OTHERS. Later it will come the time for earnings...
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74 sats \ 4 replies \ @2big2fail 30 Apr 2022
this post seems to be muun specific and has nothing to do with routing node and everything to do with how munn handles inbound liquidity for new users
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21 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 30 Apr 2022
Again, you have no idea about what is about...
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25 sats \ 2 replies \ @2big2fail 30 Apr 2022
thanks for being polite
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nout 1 May 2022
My guess is that @DarthCoin confused you with @2bithits... :)
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 1 May 2022
No, we were talking about routing nodes, not about Muun in particular. That is just an example of how much fees some users are paying. Did you look into Muun (Magnetron) node is charging? And many other nodes that are focusing only in their ego and greed?
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @2bithits 30 Apr 2022
Noobs will likely start with custodial lightning wallets.
If they explore more they might see more nodes charging as safer options to connect with as they have been around for a while.
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 30 Apr 2022
You have no idea what is about... seems that you are not running a LN node.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fierillo 10 Jun 2022 freebie
Its fine if you want put 0/0 fees.
Also its fine if somebody wants put 5000 of fee rate.
If lightning is a good system can handle with greedy or honest nodes.
just like layer 1 does.
If system rely on idilic behaviour of nodes we are fucked.
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @lada 1 May 2022 freebie
I've run my node for a year now, and I can't say I agree that I can run it while charging zero fees.
I've tried being the nice person, opening channels to newbies who asked for them in reddit threads, and what do I get? Thousands and thousands of satoshis lost from force closures as these newbies eventually just shut off their Raspberry Pis.
I'm not out to screw other bitcoiners but I need to protect myself.
Altruism can only get us so far.
Satoshi somehow got it right with the base layer not requiring people's kindness to make it work. Lightning needs to do the same.