What are the principles underlying SN's development and growth? \ stacker news ~meta

What are the principles underlying SN's development and growth?

22.6k sats \ 17 comments \ @elvismercury 15 Sep 2023 meta

Hey @k00b, I have a big picture question: as you and the team build out SN, are you building it in the direction of something?

Context is that yesterday @TonyGiorgio made a comment on not much liking the sorts of discussions on SN now, vs how it used to be. Which made me consider that there are (at least) three approaches to building a community, and I didn't know which of them you were taking.

Approach 1 is to consider that you're building a set of tools, interaction elements, and incentives. Whatever emerges as a result of those things is what SN is supposed to be -- it's an emergent expression of these design choices and technological capacities.
Approach 2 is to consider that you're building a kind of community where x happens. For SN, one could describe it as building a community where some type of bitcoin / nostr discussion occurs.
Approach 3 is that you're building something that's supposed to generate revenue, and choices from approaches 1 and 2 are made based on how well you think they'll help achieve that.

The story you posted about SN's origin says this:

In Bitcoin we say “Bitcoin fixes this” because we believe Bitcoin changes the incentives humans have in any inheriting system. We believe Bitcoin encourages people to think long term and that this seemingly small yet fundamental change is utterly transformative for the better. This is why I started Stacker News. I think Bitcoin will help us build natural communities like Bit Devs online.

which suggests a blend of {1, 2}. But the distinction between them starts to matter at the margin. For instance: what if the abusive shit-talking ancap element of SN came to drown out everything else, but it was a super lively community with lots of activity? Alternately, what if, inexplicably, SN came to be dominated by My Little Pony larpers, but again, it was super busy, lots of users, posts, zapping, etc? Neither of those outcomes resembles the BitDevs origin story that you wrote about, but would you consider those outcomes to be successful ones?

Maybe more succinctly: what, if any, kind of steering do you do, or do you consider doing, as SN evolves? Feature development is a clear way to steer, approach 1-style. Are you steering in other ways, too?

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12.5k sats \ 13 replies \ @k00b 15 Sep 2023

Excellent question and setup.

tl;dr It's (1) that I'm optimistic generates many productive (2). They're incredibly interwoven and I struggle to consider them separately tbh.

you're building a kind of community where x happens

Generically, I think our X is money<>information exchange. If we boil X longer, I think it's value exchange and imo community is value exchange, a uniquely personal and attentive form of it. (imho community is the best form of value exchange.)

All online communities are information exchanges but they're stuck in information barter, ie I give you an information apple for an information orange.

If we can create a money<>information exchange, my hope is it leads to a more efficient information trade and an information invisible hand.

Ultimately, I don't want to prescribe what happens here. I want people to pay for what they want to happen here, give them the tools to pay for it, and tools to receive what they paid for. Likewise on the supply side.

If I had to dictate what happens here, it'd be 70% learning and 25% camaraderie and 5% entertainment but why dictate that when I can let everyone choose for themselves in relative isolation?

what, if any, kind of steering do you do, or do you consider doing, as SN evolves? Feature development is a clear way to steer, approach 1-style. Are you steering in other ways, too?

Tony is a canary suggesting we've outgrown a one-size-fits-all commons. Fixing the one-size problem I believe fixes the hypotheticals you shared.

I don't want to steer. I don't want SN to be a bus. It's a network of well maintained roads to attractions you all create. I want stackers to have their own cars. I want stackers to take their wheel.

When we have subs, those will be cities. When we give sub creators economic tools, they will build their own transportation systems within their cites. We hope to even allow cities within cities within cities. But I'm getting ahead of myself ...

Hopefully that's revealing. I don't think I've yet communicated these desires very well outside of myself yet - except to maybe @hq.

140 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury OP 15 Sep 2023

These are such good and thoughtful replies, thanks for taking the time.

Generically, I think our X is money<>information exchange. If we boil X longer, I think it's value exchange and imo community is value exchange, a uniquely personal and attentive form of it. (imho community is the best form of value exchange.)

This reminds me of one of the most thought-provoking things I read last year, where punk6529 gave thoughts on how transacting is foundational to all other rights. It made me think about community in terms of what is transacted, and in particular, how honest discussion is actually a Good Thing for the world, not in a hazy general way, but very concretely. Making it possible for it to emerge is a really substantial contribution.

I have way more to say but I have to do work. SN this last week has been terrible for my productivity. I'm working on social community software and design, so I've been telling myself my SN time is 'research', but it's getting pretty tenuous sometimes ;)

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 15 Sep 2023

SN this last week has been terrible for my productivity. I'm working on social community software and design, so I've been telling myself my SN time is 'research', but it's getting pretty tenuous sometimes

Two things we have in common. :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 15 Sep 2023

haha

1672 sats \ 7 replies \ @TonyGiorgio 15 Sep 2023

Love all of this dialog!

I want people to pay for what they want to happen here

This is one of the most interesting things about being part of SN and watching it grow. It's something that resonates with incentives that should matter a lot to us (sats) vs all of the other aspects of being an identity on the internet. Everything becomes (subconsciously) a weighted decision pinned up against one of the things I know many of us here value the most. So all the things I say regarding SN is more on the intraspection of how I personally feel amongst this dichotomy of a world @k00b has created.

Though eventually competition kicks in, and it's not the only place to have sat incentives that line up here.

A few concepts that stuck out to me yesterday:

Afaict forums are a relatively level playing field meant for "the rest of us" who aren't content watching the stars from the bleachers. this format favors weak identities just as well as the strong

And it is true. There's a bit of a concept of random username which isn't important most of the time compared to the content, and the aspect of internal community IYKYK kind of thing if you do glance at the name and recognize it.

Watching things evolve on nostr too is interesting. Sat distributions are probably some distribution of

tiny sat value friendly fires
Crafty ebegging
Bullish/worthy news/developments/updates
Anything from a major influencer

I think it's heavily weighted to #3 here which is the predominate reasons I come. It's going to be different for everyone though and that's okay. There's definitely a bit of a commons problem though. Going back to "I want people to pay for what they want to happen here", it's on me to make sure that happens if it's not happening like I'd like it to. I need to be the change I seek, tip more for this content, give credit / conversations / etc. back to these pieces. But that becomes more effort on my part and that's a cost with the hidden side effect that eventually the thing I like stops appearing here because I'm incentivizing it less.

I'm saying "I/me" more than @k00b here because I do really believe that at the end of the day, it does fall on us, with the nudges of influence from him. Things like the rewards, formats, when to unlock subs, etc. etc. The sats (and thus incentives - unless skewed too heavily towards different reward biases) at the end of the day are on us.

1977 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 15 Sep 2023

I'm saying "I/me" more than @k00b here because I do really believe that at the end of the day, it does fall on us, with the nudges of influence from him. Things like the rewards, formats, when to unlock subs, etc. etc. The sats (and thus incentives - unless skewed too heavily towards different reward biases) at the end of the day are on us.

This is really on my mind, too. I've kind of bounced around btc-related spaces and bounced off all of them, because there's never really been a place where anybody seemingly cares about the stuff I care about. It's mostly regurgitating the hot takes people have internalized from other talking heads, as per your item #4. @kepford convinced me early in my SN "career" that this is no worse in bitcoin than anywhere else, but still, the brain damage was disheartening.

When I came here, I decided to see: what if I invest? Can I help make the thing that I want to exist? Or at least, a little corner of the community? Bitcoiners should be my people, and they're not. But could they be? SN is so right on in so many ways to put this to the test, brilliant design that actually encourages real discussion, good incentives, thoughtful visionary devs who keep iterating, etc. So it's on me to do my part and see if there's any demand.

It sure won't happen if I don't take action, that's the only thing I know with certainty.

312 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b 15 Sep 2023

eventually competition kicks in

I'm such easy competition. I give everything away.

I need to be the change I seek

While the people who think this way are my people, most people don't think this way so we can never rely on it.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 15 Sep 2023

I'm such easy competition. I give everything away.

Maybe evidence indicates that I'm a collaborator and maybe we should all distrust anyone framing it otherwise.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 15 Sep 2023

Has someone been framing it otherwise?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 16 Sep 2023

Eh. It’s all beside the point

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @TonyGiorgio 16 Sep 2023

I'm confused by the competition comment. I think of it as sat reward based competition, ie nostr vs SN, not really competitor competition... If that makes sense.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 16 Sep 2023

I don’t think I misunderstood you and I didn’t mean to imply you meant anything by it.

I just reject the framing because people are using it as an excuse to treat us “different.”

514 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 15 Sep 2023

You mention your preference would be more educational(I know you won't dictate this). Do you mean specifically bitcoin related education? Personally I could probably benefit as much from the tech sub as the bitcoin sub regarding education. I heard fiatjaf say about nostr that he doesn't want it to be about bitcoin. I guess he sees it as just the rails. Do you feel the same way? Also, did Tony's canary already die? Are we on the brink of stacker owned subs?

300 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 15 Sep 2023

Do you mean specifically bitcoin related education?

Education of all topics eventually. More like Reddit and less like HN as time goes on.

Do you feel the same way?

I want SN to use bitcoin to the best of its ability and SN will be whatever results from that.

Also, did Tony's canary already die?

It's not dead afaict. The canary has a very helpful form of acute asthma and is experiencing a reaction.

Are we on the brink of stacker owned subs?

My goal is by end of October. We'll see.

850 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 15 Sep 2023

Here is the signal...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 15 Sep 2023

That sums it up.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 9 Mar

Excellent question! It made me think about the extent to which founders should actively involve themselves in the shaping of their startup’s culture, especially when the features take on a life of their own and lead them in directions previously unexpected