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It seems there are really only a couple ways to buy bitcoin without leaving a digital trail:
  1. Buy from someone in person
  2. Send cash via mail order, wait for the seller to send the bitcoin, using something like Bisq for escrow
  3. Buy gift cards (i.e. Amazon) with cash and sell them p2p.
  4. Buy from ATM's.
The problems with 1) are:
  • What if I don't know anybody in person who's willing to sell?
  • Maybe I do, but I don't want them to know how much bitcoin I have, and I am revealing my identity to them.
  • They may be an inconsistent source of bitcoin (maybe they only wanted to sell one time or in specific conditions)
Problems with 2) are:
  • Trades take a long time to finish and are inconvenient.
  • Risky, since it could get lost in the mail? I'm not sure how common this is.
  • Only onchain available.
Problems with 3):
  • Can't do very large amounts.
  • The buyer of the gift card doesn't know where they were sourced from so Amazon accounts, for example, could get cancelled if they look suspicious.
  • Since what you can buy is limited to what the company offers, and since there's more inherent risk, you have to pay a much higher premium than other methods, except maybe ATM.
  • Have to keep walking into stores and buying gift cards all the time.
Problems with 4):
  • Very few no-KYC ATMs (if any?).
  • It seems at minimum (for LibertyX, which as far as I could tell is the most widely available low-KYC), you need a phone number, so if you really wanted no-KYC then you'd have to buy a burner phone just for this or use something like lnvpn's phone number service while you make the purchase.
  • High fees
Given the convenience and extra privacy benefits that come with lightning if done correctly, my favorite so far has been to use robosats with method 3) using a custodial lightning address that was signed up for with an anonymous email using something like protonmail or tutanota.
You could probably do even better by getting a custodial lightning address by signing up with nostr (you can do this flow here on SN for example).
Disappointingly, it seems that most trades on all these p2p sites happen with things that are not really no-KYC if push came to shove. Most people seem to be using Venmo, CashApp, PayPal, Zelle, or, even worse, Strike, and they therefore have to trust a) their trading partner and b) the company to not dox their banking details, and c) their bank to not get suspicious for some reason and freeze their account.
c) happened recently to a stacker here, he may have thought he was being no-KYC, and maybe his bank doesn't know he bought bitcoin, but the result of his frequent trading was a frozen bank account and a fraud investigation due to this p2p trading. And this type of p2p trading seems most popular on all the p2p sites. Unfortunately, the only large trades over lightning seem to be done this way.
In an ideal scenario, I would use something like a no-KYC CashApp that I could load up to get the best of both worlds -- nothing tied to me, but also the much lower fees, faster & more convenient trading, and much larger volumes that I can't get right now with the credit card method.
I thought about using reloadable prepaid VISA/Mastercard gift cards, but it doesn't seem possible to use them on things like CashApp/Venmo etc., and they have high fees for use anyway.
Has anyone figured out a better solution here? I'll keep doing the gift card or cash by mail methods if need be, but it's crazy that there isn't another way. I guess that's why we need bitcoin in the first place.
Someone is bound to suggest this so I'll just get it out of the way: work for bitcoin. That has its own list of problems and in many situations is probably much more inconvenient than gift cards.
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work for bitcoin
the best answer
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Thanks, I love the idea and will try to do that more, but the overhead there I think is massive compared to the gift card thing. But much more fun I bet :)
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The trick is to find a job (or a few part-time jobs) that are conducive to paying in non-KYC Bitcoin.
For instance, there is the option of powerwashing people's driveways/sidewalks. Buy a $200 powerwasher from Home Depot. Charge customers x fiat per hour. Offer them a 25% discount if they pay in Bitcoin.
Some will pay in fiat and some will pay in Bitcoin. Spend the fiat on gas/food/etc, and save the Bitcoin. Be prepared to explain how to buy Bitcoin. And have a Boomer-friendly explanation for why you want Bitcoin.
If you're into to cleaning and orange-pilling boomers, then this might be worth trying. You can do this for a few hours each weekend while working a regular 9-to-5 job.
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It is challenging to find companies that actually pay directly in Bitcoin. Most will use systems that basically buy Bitcoin out of your pre-income tax paycheck, but that is as close to "paid in bitcoin" that exists. Still a really great deal. I tried the whole getting paid in Bitcoin thing and ended up still taking most of my paycheck in cash. It just allows me to manage finances in a more realistic fashion. What I do like about this setup is you can split a % of your paycheck into Bitcoin directly instead of all of it. Perfect if you plan to buy in the first place.
You also don't want all your paycheck in because really the issue isn't getting Bitcoin, but getting rid of it. When you need to use that Bitcoin for your daily life you just potentially made your tax situation extremely complicated, because even though you are getting paid in Bitcoin you still have to sell it for cash to buy groceries or pay bills or end up at any one of the KYC checkpoints you would encounter anyways. Currently if the government knows you're buying Bitcoin they also know you're being paid in it. At least if you are a full blown w-9 carrying employee.
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IMHO the best way is to earn bitcoin. Try to do everything is possible to earn it. I mean everything.
You mention "trades", not just buying. That means you are looking for some kind of speculation. Bad, really bad.
The only way should be miners -->sell to OTC -->sell to brokers -->sell to plebs. Plebs start using it as money. No way going back to fiat. Should not be any way around to "sell your BTC". It doesn't matter in the end if you acquire non-KYC or KYC your BTC as long as YOU NEVER GO BACK TO FIAT.
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Thanks for the advice, I will try more to work for it. I think this is probably one of those things that is great in theory, but in practice is incredibly difficult in our tiny circular economies for now, but we'll get there.
I use the "trade" terminology because that's the lingo robosats uses, not because I'm trying to sell. The fiat is only going one way with me: out.
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This looks awesome! Is there a live site or is it still in development? Or can I run it myself locally? When going to https://mostro.network/ I only see development updates
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Here is a demo of the mostro-cli client. It looks amazing! I need to download it and try it out...
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I don't think there is any instance running in production yet. You could have a taste of it trying lnp2pBot on Telegram.
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I've taken a look at this and it has some very good UX. Was hard to find trades in my currency using Amazon gift cards though, but I'll keep trying it. It's also unfortunate that since it's Telegram you do need to give up a phone number. But I guess that's one of the reasons they're building Mostro.
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Yes, It's the same author. The Telegram bot is great, if you don't mind using Telegram, of course. Nostr is much better for privacy, so Mostro's much better.
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One option would be to stack via stablecoins, you could swap cash for stables on P2P exchanges or give someone cash that you know and get them to send you a bunch of stables and then go trade that P2P or use an instant swapping service
Azteco vouchers are also an option, they come at a big premium and you have to buy in increments, the system we have here in South Africa (1 voucher) I can buy $150 at a time
I guess if you're looking to load up on a bunch of non-kyc sats your other option would be to start mining
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When the time is right & bitcoin is accepted everywhere you won't have to.
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