22 sats \ 18 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022 \ parent \ on: Ask HN: How do taxes work in a hyperbitcoinized world? bitcoin
Well how do you keep your citadel running then? Who is responsible for, idk say, making sure the roads in your citadel are well maintained? You need some concept of "public money" and good utilisation of that public money needs to be insured by the people. Or else, what other way do you see? Who is responsible to build public infrastructure?
"Needs" is where your statement falls apart.
"Who would build the roads" is a literal meme from ancaps mocking the brainwashed statist.
The purpose of bitcoin, in many people's minds, is to move away from a society-by-force (taxes, government) and toward a voluntary society where there is no implicit social contract and only explicit individual ones.
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toward a voluntary society where there is no implicit social contract and only explicit individual ones.
So, basically anything goes? That's anarchist. I would like to have some form of ethics morality and law in the place I live please. How do we ensure as a society that these are available? I pay for people to be ethical, moral or law abiding? How? We all sign contract to not kill each other?
"Who would build the roads" is a literal meme from ancaps mocking the brainwashed statist. I sort of realized that this statement is a meme, sounds like it as well, but it stands to be answered or refuted atleast? Tell me, who would build the roads? If I decided I want to have roads, What's in it for me, the capitalist with lots of BTC in my bag? How do I monetize the road? Or do I do it out of the goodness of my heart?
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You are afraid of the idea of anarchy.
Are you afraid of the idea of making your own decisions?
Are you afraid of the idea of freedom?
The only semi-valid argument I've heard, after learning about anarcho-capitalism in-depth for two decades, is "what will happen to the child molesters?" This is appeal to emotion, be it a logical fallacy is still a powerful one.
You are making all the arguments of the lazy tyrant:"WE shouldn't ALLOW this or that", "SOMEONE AUGHT TO do something about this or that", "WITHOUT THE MOB STEALING FROM THE RICH, HOW WILL WE SURVIVE?"
These are all thoughts of a sheltered child with a magic button wielding unlimited power believing its the world's responsibility to provide for them the 5 basic needs: Food, Water, Shelter, Security and Energy.
You tell me, why should institutionalized theft be preferable over starvation of the irresponsible?
How does one institute charity under a system of coersion? Coersion is darkness, charity is light, the two simply are mutually exclusive.
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Private citizens, like they do under a fiat system. Governments DON"T build roads or infrastructure private citizens do it, the funding comes from theft, but governments have no skill, no labour, it will be the same thing, just where the capital comes from will be different and where the funds go will be to individuals
Do you really think we all going to sit around and say hey who is going to build the roads or a water treatment are we going to do it ourselves and bill people for the use
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Do you really think we all going to sit around and say hey who is going to build the roads or a water treatment
Yes, definitely we aren't going to just sit around and do nothing; but then the pay-per-use thing doesn't work for most of the things, no? We will end up in a situation where every single little thing needs to be paid for (and I would rather have that than have "tax" be misused and be used to buy more caviar for the elites), but how viable is "paying for everything"? And I can see its advantages now - pay per use would be more efficient in determining what the demand for something is? Maybe people aren't using the metro transit as much so the company that runs it can shut down some trains or something, and that capital maybe used elsewhere - but not everything can scale up or down. Healthcare for example - what about the scale at which it needs to be available to all? It's not always about the demand, somethings need to be available to all no matter what their capital capabilities are, and in that case we would need altruistic people with great capital power to provide for all? How would that come about?
It's just a little hard to get my head around this because maybe we aren't used to this form of society functioning and maybe we won't be for a long time to come.
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Yes these are all possibilities, I agree with you, but this idea we shouldn't feel economic pain for our decisions only leads to a path of totalitarianism.
If someone offers a shit service, another provider will come in, if someone overcharges another provider will bring down the price. High prices are a signal of economic distress and a call to others to solve it. If we hide these signals we lose efficiency
Efficiency isn't something that happens overnight there will be fuck ups, booms and busts, but overall over time, it would be less painful than what we are doing now
Regarding scale, each regions resources would dictate that, and we'd have much smaller cities dispursed as people move between to find the best deal for them. We need to allow for that discovery, and if one town has people running the roads or water that charge exploitative pricing, people will leave and kill their business, the customer holding the satoshis is always in control
I know it took me a while, I am not even there myself fully, I would highly recommend listening to The Bitcoin Standard podcast on
- Private cities
- Who will build the roads
It did a lot for me to get my head around how silly state intervention is in civil services
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Long shot - all this just feels like a long shot, but we weren't too far away in the past where people would literally freak out if we showed them a smartphone from today and so the world 100 years from today could be so different from today's that it's literally impossible to comprehend even a bit. Hope things improve and Thank God For Bitcoin - I don't know how this movement would even start if it wasn't for it.
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Of course it's a long shot, if 50 years of floating fiat teaches us anything is that we can remain irrational for a long time. But that's the beauty of bitcoin, you can choose to opt-out and reap the benefits.
I live in South Africa, I lived under apartheid, I've been all over Africa, I've been in places of civil war, I know what man is capable of in governments/fiats names and perhaps that makes me biased but I am ready for something else, this system does not and has not worked for the global South
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Explain this simple fact: if gov and banksters can print shitload of money from thin air, why we still pay taxes?
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They definitely shouldn't, but half the population is not even aware that this "printing" is even possible or is being done, that's the sad part tbh.
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I know it sounds dick-ish but the population and their opinion don't matter, they will go along with anything which is evident, it's up to people who are on the fringes to drive change, places that embrace bitcoin will continue to thrive and attract more people
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the roads, damn it the always roads...
these statists nowadays are obsessed with the roads.
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Ok, not just roads, what about healthcare and education which I don't think anyone would disagree that by now, for the love of god, in the 21st century should be free for all and easily accessible. How would we achieve that without altruistic people with large funds working/donating for that cause?
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Ask your gov to print more money and pay for those. Why do you have to pay taxes when they can just create money to pay that shit?
Being a sovereign man means you take ALL the responsibilities in your own hands. You pay for your own shit.
You don't want to pay? Fine, be a slave then.
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You still haven't answered by question though..
Ok, say we can't print money anymore, since we are hyperbitconized, now what? Who takes care of healthcare and education? Even if we were able to procure enough BTC to take care of those two problems, how do you make sure it actually happens, and see to that there is actually improvement in healthcare and education - because having the capital to something is one thing, and actually doing it is another.
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I think your have a big bias, just because we live in a fucked up society. But there are more good people than bad.
Here's an example of "free education": https://www.saylor.org/
As Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly, aka towards zero, but we don't, we see the opposite.
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Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly
Yup, he nails the point perfectly. I don't know why no one questions this.
good people than bad. Here's an example of "free education":
Right. I want this to be true, and the Golden in prosperity to all. But ids can be so fucked up d
Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly
Yup, he nails the point perfectly. I don't know why no one questions this. Imagine what an actual price of smartphone would be in terms of hard money? Insanely low priced. I mean just in fiat terms we see such a drop in prices of smartphone and tech in general.
But there are more good people than bad.
Right. I want this to be so true, and the Golden ages to be back and in prosperity to all. But idk man humans can be so fucked up sometimes. It just needs one maniac (like Hitler) to bring suffering to uncountable souls. And the world doesn't seem like stopping anytime soon in producing such maniacs. It's some evil within us that just won't stop conflicts with good and desire to want more. This dangerous combination leads to all sorts of fucked up situations and there's only little help hard money can do to curb it.
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Bad people will ALWAYS gather the sheeple in enough numbers to make their wet dream a reality. The only thing we can do is let them die sad and alone.
That last part is only possible if we have the "tools". Hard money and education should be more than enough to detter this psychopaths from even trying to hurt a fellow human being.
Think about it, if laws and money are possibly the most influential things in our lives, why is most of the global population completely ignorant about it?
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