Ask HN: How do taxes work in a hyperbitcoinized world?
45 sats \ 33 comments \ @glix 10 May 2022 bitcoin
In order to have some law and order and governance there needs to be a body handling it. Today we call that body a "government". Maybe in a hyperbitcoinized world there would be a different form of government. How will this government me funded to work for it's people? How will taxes be collected? Because transactions are purely p2p, taxes based on income would be hard to collect. Should the government then just rely on "honest" citizens that pay taxes without being asked for/forced by the government agencies (IRS). Would these people be somewhat of patreons as we have today for some online individual/group/website/content creator?
These thoughts have been going on for sometime now? What do people of SN think?
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30 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 May 2022
In order to have some law and order and governance there needs to be a body handling it.
Damn, these statists are fucking everywhere...
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20 sats \ 6 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
This makes no sense, what do you want? A place where there is no rule of law and where anyone can do as they please and thus people who have more power rule over other's as they please? This would bring us in a more fucked up place. Your dreamy little anarcho-capital state might not be that peaceful of a place as you might think. Bitcoin won't change the fact that people are greedy and that the inate human tendency to never be satisfied with things and desires will push them to unprecedented levels of perverse actions. You have just made the money deflationary but there still will be retards and mentally ill and then there will be retards and mentally ill with 277 BTC at their disposal in your "citadel" - what then? Just assuming changing money's behaviour from inflationary to deflationary is somehow going to make people more ethical is a very wrong trap.
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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @Brunswick 11 May 2022
You are mixing the state with the rule of law. It couldn't be more apparent than it is today that the state creates 'laws' that are bullshit. The 'civil tyrants' (oxymoron intended) don't even take their own rules seriously enough to follow them themselves.
The problem the bitcoinist is trying to solve with a fixed-supply currency is the ability of the tyrant to steal from everyone by eroding the value of its currency. The reason bitcoin needs to replace fiat is not because Grisham's law is incorrect but because the cost of fiat is too high. Government issued debt under fiat is a moral hazard, and the government is too corrupt and too uncontrollable to be given this power.
Just because the state has coopted the system of laws and been permitted to declare laws and enforce them doesn't mean you can't have law and justice without the state. The limitations on anarchy to allow for peace and prosperity are only in your mind.
Bitcoin does more than replace the currency, it replaces the role of government. It not only replaces money, it eliminates the need for security, for government courts, for government registrars, for government regulated central banks, and for many other industries that aren't directly run by the government. We aught'nt be trying to find a way for 'THEM' to fix problems for us, but for ways that problems can be solved by digital contracts and programmable money.
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20 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
Explain what are "taxes"... (apart from theft) ?
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20 sats \ 3 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
It's a yearly subscription for living and enjoying all the social security, stability and other services on a piece of land controlled by a group of people with large weapons who usually abide by rules written down in a book. If someone doesn't obey the rules, there's high chance they might have to pay the consequence either by capital or life. The subscription fees, as it turns out, is being used by some top elites to sustain their own highly luxurious lavish lifestyles, instead of being used to improve the social security, stability and other services for the people on the land they live on.
Yes, so it is a theft currently - mostly; but it doesn't have to be.
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23 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
It's a yearly subscription for living and enjoying all the social security,
LOL you fucking be kidding... They really brainwashed you totally. Please don't be a boot licker and dumb statist. That is way too low level of being human.
Please watch and learn
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Watching, but I would prefer reading. Any recommendations? The guy in the video mentions The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose - worth reading?
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
Yes, the book is excellent.
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105 sats \ 19 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 May 2022
Taxation in any form is theft. NO FUCKING DEBATE.
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22 sats \ 18 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Well how do you keep your citadel running then? Who is responsible for, idk say, making sure the roads in your citadel are well maintained? You need some concept of "public money" and good utilisation of that public money needs to be insured by the people. Or else, what other way do you see? Who is responsible to build public infrastructure?
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22 sats \ 2 replies \ @Brunswick 11 May 2022
"Needs" is where your statement falls apart. "Who would build the roads" is a literal meme from ancaps mocking the brainwashed statist. The purpose of bitcoin, in many people's minds, is to move away from a society-by-force (taxes, government) and toward a voluntary society where there is no implicit social contract and only explicit individual ones.
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
toward a voluntary society where there is no implicit social contract and only explicit individual ones.
So, basically anything goes? That's anarchist. I would like to have some form of ethics morality and law in the place I live please. How do we ensure as a society that these are available? I pay for people to be ethical, moral or law abiding? How? We all sign contract to not kill each other?
"Who would build the roads" is a literal meme from ancaps mocking the brainwashed statist. I sort of realized that this statement is a meme, sounds like it as well, but it stands to be answered or refuted atleast? Tell me, who would build the roads? If I decided I want to have roads, What's in it for me, the capitalist with lots of BTC in my bag? How do I monetize the road? Or do I do it out of the goodness of my heart?
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51 sats \ 0 replies \ @Brunswick 11 May 2022
You are afraid of the idea of anarchy. Are you afraid of the idea of making your own decisions? Are you afraid of the idea of freedom?
The only semi-valid argument I've heard, after learning about anarcho-capitalism in-depth for two decades, is "what will happen to the child molesters?" This is appeal to emotion, be it a logical fallacy is still a powerful one.
You are making all the arguments of the lazy tyrant:"WE shouldn't ALLOW this or that", "SOMEONE AUGHT TO do something about this or that", "WITHOUT THE MOB STEALING FROM THE RICH, HOW WILL WE SURVIVE?" These are all thoughts of a sheltered child with a magic button wielding unlimited power believing its the world's responsibility to provide for them the 5 basic needs: Food, Water, Shelter, Security and Energy.
You tell me, why should institutionalized theft be preferable over starvation of the irresponsible?
How does one institute charity under a system of coersion? Coersion is darkness, charity is light, the two simply are mutually exclusive.
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22 sats \ 7 replies \ @TheBTCManual 11 May 2022
Private citizens, like they do under a fiat system. Governments DON"T build roads or infrastructure private citizens do it, the funding comes from theft, but governments have no skill, no labour, it will be the same thing, just where the capital comes from will be different and where the funds go will be to individuals
Do you really think we all going to sit around and say hey who is going to build the roads or a water treatment are we going to do it ourselves and bill people for the use
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20 sats \ 6 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Do you really think we all going to sit around and say hey who is going to build the roads or a water treatment
Yes, definitely we aren't going to just sit around and do nothing; but then the pay-per-use thing doesn't work for most of the things, no? We will end up in a situation where every single little thing needs to be paid for (and I would rather have that than have "tax" be misused and be used to buy more caviar for the elites), but how viable is "paying for everything"? And I can see its advantages now - pay per use would be more efficient in determining what the demand for something is? Maybe people aren't using the metro transit as much so the company that runs it can shut down some trains or something, and that capital maybe used elsewhere - but not everything can scale up or down. Healthcare for example - what about the scale at which it needs to be available to all? It's not always about the demand, somethings need to be available to all no matter what their capital capabilities are, and in that case we would need altruistic people with great capital power to provide for all? How would that come about?
It's just a little hard to get my head around this because maybe we aren't used to this form of society functioning and maybe we won't be for a long time to come.
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22 sats \ 2 replies \ @TheBTCManual 11 May 2022
Yes these are all possibilities, I agree with you, but this idea we shouldn't feel economic pain for our decisions only leads to a path of totalitarianism.
If someone offers a shit service, another provider will come in, if someone overcharges another provider will bring down the price. High prices are a signal of economic distress and a call to others to solve it. If we hide these signals we lose efficiency
Efficiency isn't something that happens overnight there will be fuck ups, booms and busts, but overall over time, it would be less painful than what we are doing now
Regarding scale, each regions resources would dictate that, and we'd have much smaller cities dispursed as people move between to find the best deal for them. We need to allow for that discovery, and if one town has people running the roads or water that charge exploitative pricing, people will leave and kill their business, the customer holding the satoshis is always in control
I know it took me a while, I am not even there myself fully, I would highly recommend listening to The Bitcoin Standard podcast on
  • Private cities
  • Who will build the roads
It did a lot for me to get my head around how silly state intervention is in civil services
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Long shot - all this just feels like a long shot, but we weren't too far away in the past where people would literally freak out if we showed them a smartphone from today and so the world 100 years from today could be so different from today's that it's literally impossible to comprehend even a bit. Hope things improve and Thank God For Bitcoin - I don't know how this movement would even start if it wasn't for it.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 11 May 2022
Of course it's a long shot, if 50 years of floating fiat teaches us anything is that we can remain irrational for a long time. But that's the beauty of bitcoin, you can choose to opt-out and reap the benefits.
I live in South Africa, I lived under apartheid, I've been all over Africa, I've been in places of civil war, I know what man is capable of in governments/fiats names and perhaps that makes me biased but I am ready for something else, this system does not and has not worked for the global South
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20 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
Explain this simple fact: if gov and banksters can print shitload of money from thin air, why we still pay taxes?
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
They definitely shouldn't, but half the population is not even aware that this "printing" is even possible or is being done, that's the sad part tbh.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 11 May 2022
I know it sounds dick-ish but the population and their opinion don't matter, they will go along with anything which is evident, it's up to people who are on the fringes to drive change, places that embrace bitcoin will continue to thrive and attract more people
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20 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
the roads, damn it the always roads... these statists nowadays are obsessed with the roads.
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20 sats \ 5 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Ok, not just roads, what about healthcare and education which I don't think anyone would disagree that by now, for the love of god, in the 21st century should be free for all and easily accessible. How would we achieve that without altruistic people with large funds working/donating for that cause?
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20 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 May 2022
Ask your gov to print more money and pay for those. Why do you have to pay taxes when they can just create money to pay that shit?
Being a sovereign man means you take ALL the responsibilities in your own hands. You pay for your own shit. You don't want to pay? Fine, be a slave then.
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40 sats \ 3 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
You still haven't answered by question though.. Ok, say we can't print money anymore, since we are hyperbitconized, now what? Who takes care of healthcare and education? Even if we were able to procure enough BTC to take care of those two problems, how do you make sure it actually happens, and see to that there is actually improvement in healthcare and education - because having the capital to something is one thing, and actually doing it is another.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @mf 12 May 2022
I think your have a big bias, just because we live in a fucked up society. But there are more good people than bad. Here's an example of "free education": https://www.saylor.org/
As Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly, aka towards zero, but we don't, we see the opposite.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @glix OP 12 May 2022
Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly
Yup, he nails the point perfectly. I don't know why no one questions this.
good people than bad. Here's an example of "free education":
Right. I want this to be true, and the Golden in prosperity to all. But ids can be so fucked up d
Jeff Booth is always hammering, technology is deflationary, and we should be seeing prices of literally everything going down constantly
Yup, he nails the point perfectly. I don't know why no one questions this. Imagine what an actual price of smartphone would be in terms of hard money? Insanely low priced. I mean just in fiat terms we see such a drop in prices of smartphone and tech in general.
But there are more good people than bad.
Right. I want this to be so true, and the Golden ages to be back and in prosperity to all. But idk man humans can be so fucked up sometimes. It just needs one maniac (like Hitler) to bring suffering to uncountable souls. And the world doesn't seem like stopping anytime soon in producing such maniacs. It's some evil within us that just won't stop conflicts with good and desire to want more. This dangerous combination leads to all sorts of fucked up situations and there's only little help hard money can do to curb it.
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40 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 11 May 2022
I think different regions will employ different models, but under a bitcoin standard, I don't see the need for tax but others may disagree.
The easiest would be consumption tax adding VAT on products and services which then filters down into the central treasury, others may consider a land tax, but only on size, how you develop the land should have no baring on how much you should pay. it's only on size and then its up to you to use that land how you feel.
Others may consider bond offerings to raise capital for certain projects but I think most things can be done privately. Example, If I have enough cash i'll build a road and charge people to use it
I don't think people realise how much money is wasted by the government and if they were removed how much value would circulate amoung people to build things themselves and provide for private services and charity
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 11 May 2022
The first thing to notice is that currently there are in the world countries with no income tax. You can have a look here.
Hyperbitcoinization will take time to adjust, but it's coming. Right now in the largest economies Bitcoin is seen as an asset, still priced in fiat. So there's the capital gain tax.
In countries where Bitcoin is legal tender, like El Salvador, there's no such capital gains tax for Bitcoin.
Also note that this is already happening in other countries. For example in the UK gold coins do not have capital gain tax, because they're considered legal tender.
TCGA92/S21 (1) (b) of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 states that Sovereigns post-1837 and Britannias are exempt due to being classed as Sterling currency and thus legal tender coins. Sovereigns pre-1837 are considered chattels – personal possessions – and have been given a specific exemption.
It will be just a matter of time until laws are changed to accept that Bitcoin is legal tender, and therefore doesn't have capital gains tax.
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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Right, but the government bodies still need some sort of income to run the country. If not income, they tax something else. They tax your property, your business, they collect road tax from when you buy a car or when you pay at a toll to use the highway, etc. You can't really have a functional government if they don't have funds to to perform their jobs.
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22 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 10 May 2022
What’s hn 😂
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32 sats \ 0 replies \ @glix OP 11 May 2022
Ahh shit, can you maybe alter the title? 😂
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