Howey Test:
  1. An investment of money
  2. In a common enterprise
  3. A reasonable expectation of profit
  4. Derived from the efforts of others
You could apply this logic to every single post and comment on SN. In a way these are also "territories". The only difference is startup cost and UI.
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525 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 7 Dec 2023
Derived from the efforts of others
How does this apply? We're not going to build anything that forces people to zap your content.
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Force isn't the issue. The only way to profit off of owning a territory is by other users to post, comment, and zap content there.
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525 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 7 Dec 2023
but the only way to profit is to provide content that users want to zap, no?
yes, you wouldn't get any zaps if there aren't any users.
but zapping someone is not an "effort" imo. the effort is creating the content to zap.
The only way to profit off of owning a territory is by other users to post, comment, and zap content there.
Oh, wait, I think I see what you mean now. I thought with "others" the SN team is meant. But the stackers are meant.
But stackers are then not an enterprise, are they? lol
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I don't know how "common enterprise" is defined, but I could imagine stackers being considered part of a common enterprise, since we get paid for contributing here.
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Bitcoin isn't considered money in the U.S. Not an issue.
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Feels like a weak defense for #1 only.
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You can't get to #2 without #1.
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Right, but if its weak, then it could pass.
By the "its not money" argument, a company could IPO, using BTC as a numeraire, and it all be cool(?)
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I quickly answered you, but you have me thinking. Your specific IPO example couldn't fly, obviously, since you need to use dollars to bring an IPO. My instincts tell me territories would not be considered securities, but I can't articulate why off the top of my head. I need to do some research when I can get some time. It is an important question and I'm glad you asked it.
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can't articulate why off the top of my head
maybe because you don't want them to be? :) lol
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Could be. I hope not.
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277 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 7 Dec 2023
I know that I tended to just dismiss the idea because it sounded ridiculous
but that's not how you're going to win in a court by saying something is "ridiculous", lol
Right, it wouldn't fly on a regulated stock exchange in the US, cause dollars are the only unit of account supported.
But if I launched a website, registered a company, and then sold shares for BTC - that'd be a security. And it'd be a public offering too. I guess I was using "IPO" in the broadest sense of the word.
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I believe the OCC, FDIC, SEC, IRS, and whatever other agencies have differing definitions and bitcoin generally gets the least favorable interpretation in each circumstance. There appears to be no consensus, so I wouldn't consider this a black and white "it's not money so we're fine" issue. If it were this clear, the SEC could pack it up and go home, no?
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You're right. My initial gut reaction was premature. It would open a Pandora's box, though, for the government to try something. There are already international currency laws wherein nations respect each other's currencies. Nevertheless, the U.S. doesn't recognize bitcoin as a currency, despite El Salvador. I think an important reason is the IRS benefits from capital gains each time there's a bitcoin transaction. They don't want this challenged in court. They stand to lose a huge revenue source, and this also helps them to slow bitcoin adoption in the U.S.
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Is a Shopify store a security?
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Is a domain name a security?
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I've always believed upvoting at all is a security because I expect to get rewards for upvoting things early.
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No. I have no expectation of profit and if I do manage to make a profit it will be through my own efforts on top of the rails built by others. If territories are securities so is every shopify store, amazon store, app in the app store.
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stacker news is an experiment, setting expectations on something that is in its infancy is juvenile at best
let it play out
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So is land a security?
  1. People buy land as a form of investment (with money)
  2. Two or more people can work together, pooling their resources and skills to achieve a common goal
  3. 100000%
  4. No shit, dirty doesn't have an intrinsic value, but we see land prices go up because of other new builds, infrastructure etc
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I don't know if @k00b gave us good enough value propositions on these territories for #3 to hold up.
I.e. Puerto Rico is a security.
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ask gary:)
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