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It's no secret that Ordinals and Stamps are making the fees go to the moon, they are so high right now that the median fee to be included in the 6th pending block (1 hour away from now) is 200sats/vByte, around 45200 sats in transaction fees if you're spending a 1 input 1 output segwit UTXO, or roughly 17.5 € at the time of writing (December 117th 2023 - Block height: 821656) . In what started as a means to do something new with Bitcoin, has spiraled into making Bitcoin unusable to the average Joe, a bunch of conspiracy theories on how this is "a Nation estate sponsored attack" and the wackiest wars ever fought: in one side you have a bunch of idiots in Wizard costumes telling everyone that they can do whatever they want with their money and in the other side a religious fruitcake that has been accused of eating cats trying to limit what people can do with their money. And in the middle of all this shitshow, it's us the plebs, the people who now can't spend their own money because it's too expensive to move of that have resort to trusted 3rd parties to do the heavy lifting.
How many times have you checked the mempool just this week? 1 time? 10 times? 100 times? Was that enough, or do you need to check it another 10 times Anon? It's not like you can afford to spend your money right now anyways.
The situation right now is sad, really sad, you see people losing half of their hard earned money on a LN channel closure, trusting a 3rd parties to hold their trustless money, we went from "Not your keys, not your coins", "remove your coins from all custodians immediately" and "never reuse an address" to "Wallet of Satoshi is great", "Pressure your exchange to accept Bitcoin on Liquid" and "Make all your UTXOs bigger than 1M sats, or even better, have all on a single UTXO because you might never be able to spend it" real quick, so now, the same people who were pitching self-custody, multiple keys and never resusing UTXOs, the same people who bashed cryptobros every time the federation who held the keys of their favorite layer 2 rug pulled everyone, and who said that Bitcoin would bank the unbanked, are now pivoting to recommending a trusted federation as the holder of their money until it becomes economically viable to move and are telling everyone that they'll never be able to use the trustless system, only trustees.
Now, let's be real for s second, while I find Ordinals and Stamps to be a waste of resources, pure gambling, speculation and overall an extremely stupid way to burn money, I won't even try to stop them, it would be against myself to do so, I support freedom, even the freedom to make stupid decisions, and although this fad will pass, but the problems will stay and something must be done to tackle them, we need better solutions than what we have right now.
This is the result of keeping Bitcoin unchanged for the sake if keeping it unchanged, ironically but nut surprisingly, the fear of change has led us to needing a change. This is what we all wished for, a fee market and only a few players using the chain.
I know this might sound as a Mike Hearn moment but it isn't, I won't be leaving Bitcoin and selling it all, and even if I did, it wouldn't matter, I'm a nobody. But if there's anything to learn from everything that's happening is that Bitcoin needs a change, and it doesn't matter what do you think, Bitcoin will change, and this new war is evidence that it will happen.
I'm really glad all this debacle is happening because it stress tests the strong beliefs held by many Bitcoiners, it stress test the strength of decentralization and it stress tests market dynamics, this is not a war sponsored by a nation estate, this is the market fighting puritanism and extreme caution, it's a war on the absolutely stupid cult-like behavior of many so called Bitcoin maximalists, which is willing to give away Bitcoin to trustees as long as Bitcoin doesn't change, and it won't be won by them, nor will be won by the people who only want to trade JPEGs. In the end, the only winner in all of this will be Bitcoin.
we went from "Not your keys, not your coins", "remove your coins from all custodians immediately" and "never reuse an address" to "Wallet of Satoshi is great", "Pressure your exchange to accept Bitcoin on Liquid" and "Make all your UTXOs bigger than 1M sats, or even better, have all on a single UTXO because you might never be able to spend it" real quick, so now, the same people who were pitching self-custody, multiple keys and never resusing UTXOs, the same people who bashed cryptobros every time the federation who held the keys of their favorite layer 2 rug pulled everyone, and who said that Bitcoin would bank the unbanked, are now pivoting to recommending a trusted federation as the holder of their money until it becomes economically viable to move and are telling everyone that they'll never be able to use the trustless system, only trustees
This one resonates. I have a few concurrent thoughts:
  1. It's important that we don't get so attached to the name "Bitcoin" that we'll support anything related to Bitcoin even when it doesn't adhere to the principles of sound money and financial self sovereignty. In that sense, I am firmly against NFTs on bitcoin... bitcoin was not designed to be an arbitrary data storage system and shouldn't be used as such. There is an OP_RETURN size limit... so why can't we implement a limit on TX size if it looks clearly beyond that of a financial transaction, or simply eliminate the witness discount? I'm not so up to speed on all the technical details, so I'd love to hear some feedback on that thought.
  2. That being said, even if there were no ordinals, capacity is still going to be a problem in the long run. If the whole world is onboarded to bitcoin, it's going to be too expensive for the average person to use the base layer anyway, without some major change to bitcoin operating principles. Thus, L2 solutions are a requirement no matter what.
  3. I see two "optimistic" free market responses. For the ordinals, the optimistic free market response is that eventually these folks will run out bitcoin. Maybe they can use their fiat gains to buy more bitcoin, but they'll eventually run out of suckers to pawn their NFTs off to. For custodial L2 solutions, the free market response is that the base layer is still hard money. Thus, L2 providers will be like a competitive banking system with private issuance, as envisioned by hard money economist George Selgin. Yes, we will have to rely on trust, but the trust will be backed by verifiable reserves and competition from other issuers.
Food for thought. I have no idea how this all plays out.
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The nuance for your #2 is that, in the long run, if the entire world was using it, and financial txns were filling up blocks alone, then Bitcoin would have enough users to sway popular opinion, and Bitcoin could grow.
But if a small number of people fill up blocks, the baby is at risk of being killed in its cradle.
I say we tune the software to handle one specific purpose and use case. Classic engineering fail is to try to solve to be everything to everyone.
Grep. Ls. Man. Cp. Rm. Mkdir. Cat. ...
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If we could improve fungibility without losing verifiability, Ordinals and Stamps would be done for. What enables them is the ability to track sats, all they need to do is to pretend the system uses a FIFO accounting system and that's it. Improving fungibility (we can copy the Monero guys) would solve most of this, a mempool war of trying to limit people to what they can or can't do with their money and the tools they have at their disposal is not the way, IMO.
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Monero-style privacy on L1 would trigger a big Operation Chokepoint. The reason governments are not targeting Monero is it's not nearly as big as Bitcoin.
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We don't need Monero style privacy per se, but we can copy some things.
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#1: this has always been my main criticism of maximalism, it doesn't matter if it all goes to shit, it doesn't matter if it destroys you financially, it doesn't matter if you have to trust a third party, all as ling as it's Bitcoin, it shouldn't be changed because Bitcoin is pristine, pure and perfect and everything going haywire is part of the plan, all banks are a scam except for the Bitcoin only banks. The problem with removing the segwit discount for any size of TX is that whenever you have a multiple ins TX, lets say, somebody has many small UTXOs and want's to spend them all in a single TX they would be astronomically fucked because of the size of their TX. Adding to that, if I'm not mistaken it's the discount itself what solves the transaction malleability bug, so I don't find it viable to remove the discount.
#2: L2s are a necessity, doesn't matter if the blocks are 1mb or 1 trillion yottabytes, but it's clear that either 1 mb doesn't cut it anymore, or that the way that the L2s have been developed is not the right way. If LN is rhe way forward, 1MB doesn't cut it anymore, and that's clear, I'm lucky that I opened my channels at less than 20 sats/vByte, but not everyone has had the same luck, and with those high fees, the people who would want to run their own nodes will to relay on LSPs with the ability to censor them while they, themselves pay for all the fees, or directly fall back into a bank, but a Bitcoin bank.
The other option is of course, the one that doesn't need a block increase to work, drivechains, but instead of people trying to improve the BIP to solve this issue once and for all, we've spent 7 years bashing it because it "bring shitcoins to Bitcoin", well, guess what, we already have them, we have had coloured coins since the beginning, we have BRC-20s, CBRC-20s, and lets not forget about Lightning Labs developing Taproot assets, or the fact that RGB has been on the works for a long time now, somehow, they get a free pass. But the trustless edition of shitcoinery, that needs to be 1:1 backed, doesn't, because it's better to have a grudge on the guy for listening to the BCash podcast than help improve the BIP and solve the issues that are there, middle ground can be found, but clearly, one side doesn't want to, and lamentably is that side the one hurting Bitcoin the most.
#3: I get it completely, Bitcoin is hard money, and I love it for that, but there are other emerging properties such as censorship resistance and actual ownership that are being priced out for most people. It started as an alternative to the banks but if we continue on this path of not letting it evolve, closing ourselv in an echo chamber and relegate decision making to "those who know better" who are actually doing nothing, we will have banks dominating it all over again, and it might not be hard money any longer.
Bitcoin is our tool to break the cycle of debt, there's more effort into making it easier to owe than to own.
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Thus, L2 providers will be like a competitive banking system with private issuance, as envisioned by hard money economist George Selgin
IIRC Hal Finney envisioned that too.
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He did! Maybe what the future holds is private or state issued currencies backed by Bitcoin.
Does anyone know what’s the problem with an elastic block size by the way? Was it that we wouldn’t have a large enough block anyway assuming the whole world was bitcoinized?
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Why do you assume bitcoin needs to change? What's so inherent in the problems we have that change of bitcoin itself is needed?
Bitcoin script is pretty fancy and allows for composability and building-on-top.
Maybe solution is LN? Maybe solution is Ark protocol? Maybe solution is NOT_YET_IMPLEMENTED_SOLUTION_ON_TOP_OF_BITCOIN? Why do seek solution via change of bitcoin itself, and not on top of it?
When was the last time we changed TCP/UDP/IP protocols? Decades ago. We built what needed on top of those protocols. Protocols are not meant to be changed often/late_in_existence.
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2012, IPv6 was introduced.
Have you used Bitcoin lately? Have you tried to make a LN payment that doesn't go through a top 10 LN node?
Don't be blind, we need to change the way things are being done, I'm not saying that we should add tail emissions or something stupid, but this resistance to change is what needs to change.
Pressure makes diamonds. There was already several projects emerging that aim to scale the network and potential use cases.
Devs will continue to dev and the market will find solutions (albeit tradeoffs) that can optimize for different use cases.
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I'm not sure most devs are deving right now (talking about some well known Core devs who everyone seem to hold to a higher standard), only reading proposals and talking about how every proposal is bad because it was not their idea.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 18 Dec 2023
Its a good time to learn about your setup that's for sure
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It's always a good time, the problem is, that now it's impossible to set up things properly in a humane way, which takes trail and error, because it's too expensive and after years we have no good alternatives, all we have is podcasts, books, and core developers who do nothing other that bashing on BIPs.
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We knew from block 0 that, at the margin, fees will be the only way for miners to make money, so there must come a point when fees will surpass block subsidy. Fighting or delaying something that's inevitable is pointless.
SegWit was a "mistake" in that sped us up to this point. We need to accept that and learn to live with it.
What we need is for certain Bitcoin Core developers to get off their high horses and start solving practical problems for the future, such as, how will a node still run on a Raspberry Pi if every single person on earth owns at least one utxo (and AI agents may have many more).
Alternatively, they need to switch their talent to L2 and get Lightning out of its growing pains phase so that Uncle Jims can safely operate all over the world for their families/communities.
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What we need is for certain Bitcoin Core developers to get off their high horses and start solving practical problems for the future, such as, how will a node still run on a Raspberry Pi if every single person on earth owns at least one utxo (and AI agents may have many more).
Could you please elaborate what problems you expect with that?
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As far as I know, Bitcoin Core keeps the entire utxo set indexed in memory so that it can validate incoming transactions and blocks faster. 8 billion utxos would require 10s, if not 100s of GBs of RAM. This is completely infeasible not only for top tier Raspberry Pis but also any commodity hardware.
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Bitcoin Core does not keep the entire UTXO set in memory. Starting from an empty UTXO cache, we only add UTXOs that are needed to validate transactions and new UTXOs created by blocks we process. (The mempool maintain its own implicit UTXO set across the unconfirmed transactions it holds.) Whenever the UTXO cache reaches its limit, all changes are persisted to disk and the UTXO cache is flushed. IIRC, it is also flushed every 24h at the latest. If a newly created UTXO is spent (by a confirmed transaction) before we flush, that UTXO is deleted from the cache immediately and never persisted to disk.
A node would be able to synchronize the blockchain faster and validate blocks with previously unseen transactions more quickly if it could keep the entire UTXO set in memory, but even if you have a set a huge dbcache that can only happen once: when you first start your node and synchronize until your node is restarted (or has run for 24h). Unless your node must absolutely minimize transaction validation and block processing time, it is also completely unnecessary. Once you are caught up with the chaintip, your node learns about unconfirmed transactions throughout. We validate transactions before adding them to the mempool, at which point we have already retrieved all necessary UTXOs from disk, and also cache their script validation. When a block comes in, we only need to retrieve any UTXOs for transactions that the node does not have in its mempool.
It would also take north of 10 years to create that many UTXOs, even if we designated all blockspace to that purpose. So whatever Raspberry Pi successor people run at that point will hopefully be a bit more beefy than today.
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In that case, I am genuinely curious why people make all the "utxo bloat" an issue (it's one of the contentions against Ordinals)? Because disk space, unlike RAM, should not be a concern these days.
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A larger UTXO set does push up the minimum chainstate a pruned node needs to keep around, and more UTXOs make it (slightly) slower to load UTXOs from disk, while also requiring the UTXO cache to be flushed slightly more often. It is more of a graceful degradation, though.
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"Be humble, stack sats" Well, I guess the second is harder these days. Maybe due to too litlle of the former.
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Maxis are so trained on buzzwords like censorship, they mistake everything for it.
Bitcoin is not perfect, it might need a change. We should be very conservative, but we should also acknowledge problems like the current spam and openly discuss solutions, without constantly crying "censorship".
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Exactly.
I'm not saying that we give Bitcoin away, restructure it completely from the ground up and start all over again with the same name, just that we need to change the way we are doing things.
Mistaking valid criticisms for FUD, shitcoinery or whatever buzzword comes to mind is as stupid as going completely for the other route.
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We need to be careful what we promise the world. Technology is very difficult. Especially, that which solves the world's biggest problem.
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To any readers who have the skills and knowledge to help solve the problem, let's write some code and make ordinals less crappy. Keen to hear all ideas, novel, clever, or absurd.
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How do you know what is causing the current fees?
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Use the mempool goggles. Also, follow the Retardinal minters, they are attacking Bitcoin maximalism directly.
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All those Ordinal inscriptions should have been in a parallel chain. It's not efficient to store junk (cats and apes) in the main-chain
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Indeed, they could do it on Roostock pretty easily or on liquid but I think the appeal is the block space limit and the fees kinda justify the value premium of whats essentially worth zero
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That, and the fact that none of those sidechains are trustless, as long as there's a federation it's a centralized chain, and as long as it's centralized, minting the jpgs there is not worth it.
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neither are any of the altcoin chains yet they're still minting there too, they've even migrated the ordinals style of creating tokens and nfts into these altcoin chains like ETH, MATIC, doge and the list goes on.
Sure they can justify a premium because you're using bitcoin, and it doesn't have the security label on the base layer like these other chains
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I didn't know this. Maybe merge mining could help us by easing the narrative of the security "they are as secure as they are in Bitcoin itself", but the block space won't be as scarce anyways.
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