What does SN think of the Trump/NYC verdict? \ stacker news ~news

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What does SN think of the Trump/NYC verdict?

6720 sats \ 104 comments \ @SimpleStacker 21 Feb news

For background, he was ordered to pay a penalty of some $300+ million because he overstated the worth of his real estate on loan applications. But my understanding is that none of his creditors actually lost money on these loans and that they did their due diligence on the loan applications. The perspective of most conservative media is that this was a political hit job on a victimless crime where no one was complaining, and that it'll have a chilling effect on real estate development because all developers overstate their property values in a similar way.

I have to admit though, all my news sources are right-leaning or center-right, so I don't know if I have the full picture. But from the sound of it, it seems like a transparently motivated by anti-Trumpism and that there wasn't really a victim to this supposed crime.

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1565 sats \ 18 replies \ @siggy47 21 Feb

One more thing. Here's the NY civil fraud statute:

New York Civil Common Law Fraudulent Misrepresentation

the defendant made an intentional material false representation; the plaintiff reasonably relied upon the defendant’s fraudulent misrepresentation; and the plaintiff suffered damage as a result of their reliance on the fraudulent misrepresentation.

Here, there were no damages and no victim, as @Undisciplined pointed out.

227 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Deutsche Bank did their own research and due diligence.

They do this for every loan applicant.

327 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

This is a good summary of the ruling

https://reason.com/2024/02/19/how-a-judge-arrived-at-a-staggering-disgorgement-order-against-trump/

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 23 Feb

I wasn't aware of this statute. It will be interesting if this withstands appellate review. It seems like the perfect vehicle for selective enforcement. I would like to know how often it's been used.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

https://casetext.com/statute/consolidated-laws-of-new-york/chapter-executive/article-5-department-of-law/section-63-general-duties/analysis?citingPage=1&sort=relevance&sortCiting=date-descending

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/nyregion/donald-trump-letitia-james-lawsuit.html

Provides some recent history of NY AG using this statute.

One was against Trump university

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Law was passed in 1956.

I can’t find any information about why it was passed.

NY sued Exxon for climate change under this statute.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Exxon_Mobil

There is also a question about statute of limitations

206 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Did NY rely upon Trump’s fraudulent misrepresentation?

Trump did not apply for a loan from the state. DB is not a state agency.

States will often sue doctors for Medicare or Medicaid fraud. This is not the case here

206 sats \ 0 replies \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

The judge disagreed with that. How does your opinion differ from the courts?

386 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 21 Feb

Weird that so much attention is given to a victimless incident that isn't a crime? He must be stopped to save democracy!

Lol

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Key word is victimless.

Shoplifting is often described by the left as victimless.

This should be like the usfl vs nfl antitrust case in 1986. Jury award was 3 dollars in punitive damages. USFL won the case but received no damages ie 3 dollars

I heard the 3 dollar check was never cashed

375 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Who is the plaintiff? The lender? The state of New York?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

I believe it’s the state of New York.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Why is NY entitled to damages if it did not loan money to or transact with Trump?

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Engoron’s conclusion that “fraud” under Executive Law 63(12) doesn’t require reasonable reliance is unsupported by any applicable case citation or extended reasoning. It was invented by him solely for this case, and will never be followed by any court again. That’s why Governor Hochul is scrambling around to assure businesses that Trump will be the statute’s only and last target using that silly interpretation.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

The Deutsche unit making the Trump business loans wasn’t the typical lending unit, but its private wealth division. That group often lends to rich clients not only to earn interest but to help its chances of winning the lucrative business of managing their vast personal investments and getting them to buy other bank services — something that testimony showed Deutsche was clearly hoping to do with the ex-president.

From AP News

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

https://clsbluesky.law.columbia.edu/2023/11/21/john-c-coffee-jr-the-trump-civil-trial-has-anyone-looked-at-the-statute/?amp=1

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb freebie

"The attorney general's job is to protect people who can't protect themselves," Syracuse University law professor Gregory Germain said. "Here, we're dealing with very sophisticated lenders who are fully capable of protecting themselves and haven't asked the attorney general for help."

"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Lost interest payment based on loan amount and interest rate adjustment

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4287509-trump-orgs-false-financial-statements-cost-banks-168m-in-interest-ny-ag-financial-expert/

There is a PDF file in the hill article

435 sats \ 3 replies \ @UCantDoThatDotRugged 21 Feb

If there are materially false statements on a loan application, that is fraud. I have not seen the loan application. I don't trust courts to properly evaluate laws or documents. I expect courts to hold Trump to a different standard than Biden. I feel safe assuming what has happened here. I doubt New York development elites would survive this standard being held statewide.

27 sats \ 1 reply \ @_stacktoshi 21 Feb

Even IF it is material, does the punishment fit the crime?

it's almost like they're aching for him to be president again

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @UCantDoThatDotRugged 21 Feb

Good point. There's no way there's $300million of damages. As #434318 Siggy said below, there's no victim at all, and the state requires it by law. The more facts I learn, the more unruly the court seems to be.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 22 Feb

If there are materially false statements on a loan application, that is fraud.

well.....the injured party would need bring the case.

I don't think I've every heard of a case where the state files a civil suit against someone with no plaintiff claiming they were injured. I mean Deutschebank was called to testify and basically testified on behalf of Trump. Saying they willingly entered into the loan contract and were paid-in-full....

Forget Trump, but this precedent should be extremely worrying to all businesses in NYC.

367 sats \ 17 replies \ @Undisciplined 21 Feb

My understanding is very similar to yours, but I acknowledge the same possible blind spots.

If I'm going to believe he committed fraud, I need to see someone actually claim to have been damaged and then prove that damage came from Trump's deception. I've seen nothing like that.

I also understand that this did not go to trial, but was rather a summary judgement. That strikes me as quite a miscarriage of justice.

Maybe our resident NY attorney will enlighten us.

(I feel like I need a Siggy Signal for occasions like this)

@ek can you make me a Siggy Signal that summons @siggy47 in a cooler way than just tagging him?

2093 sats \ 15 replies \ @siggy47 21 Feb

A couple of things. First of all, it's not criminal. It is a civil case. Second, the judge granted summary judgment, before any witnesses were called. What he basically ruled was that there were no triable issues of fact. Summary judgment denies a litigant their day in court, so should only be granted in extreme cases. Applying it here seems ridiculous to me. Also, I have been involved in commercial real estate financing in NY and other states. I have literally had bank representatives offer to play with the values of property to get larger loans. The banker would then get a larger commission. This is the way real estate financing works. It is a political ruling. Complete bullshit, IMO. For the record, I don't like Donald Trump.

238 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

The state and the judge used the assessment value of his Mar lago estate. 18 million vs market value which is at least 400 million.

The attorney general and judge do not understand how assessment works

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 22 Feb

The attorney general and judge do not understand how assessment works

I think they do...and that's worse.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

206 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Rule of law is about the law not the person or his politics.

Why do we have public defenders? If you look at most felons you should hate them

Why do we have due process?

364 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined 21 Feb

So, appealing the decision is the only recourse, right?

But, I heard something about Trump being required to put up 10% of the judgement before he can move forward with an appeal. That seems preposterous, unless I badly misunderstood what I overheard.

I'm guessing that it will be very difficult to actually seize his buildings as they've threatened to do.

230 sats \ 7 replies \ @siggy47 22 Feb

I haven't looked into that, but he probably can post a bond or undertaking.

I just remembered something else. In law school we used to use the old basketball phrase "no harm, no foul" in the context of civil damages. The liability wasn't enough. You needed to prove damages. There were none here. These cases are typically brought only after a borrower defaults on a loan. Then you have damages.

354 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined 22 Feb

I think they were saying the bond would have to be for 10%. If so, that's a crazy tool for a tyrant to be able to wield. They can make an egregiously unjust ruling and set the penalty so high that you can't even afford to appeal.

Where do you think this is going? Not the Trump element specifically, but this kind of weaponized politically motivated prosecution.

635 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 22 Feb freebie

Oh, it will be tit for tat, just like how everyone gets impeached now. The NY Post had an interesting take. The democrats have just made Trump a martyr, endearing him to people who disliked him previously. This might be an enormous political error.

603 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 22 Feb

it will be tit for tat

Where are all the frivolous charges and suits against Democrats, then?

Most states have Republican administrations and those DA's don't seem inclined to follow the Democrats' lead. They don't even seem inclined to prosecute cases of real wrongdoing. Maybe that will change, but for now I'd say the situation is extremely asymmetrical.

Btw, like you, I'm no fan of Trump in particular or Republicans in general.

130 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 22 Feb

I think Biden will be arrested or charged civilly for something once he's out of office, if he lives that long.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Jonathan Turley made the same exact point.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

400 million or a bond

193 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 24 Feb

Executive law 63-12 precludes trial by jury because it’s about disgorgement not damages

684 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 21 Feb freebie

@ek can you make me a Siggy Signal that summons @siggy47 in a cooler way than just tagging him?

Mhh, maybe tagging him and editing it out before he sees it? You might get a confused reply in that case though.

edit: oh, no, I was too slow with editing haha

update: Another cool signal would be to zap siggy the item number. Might get expensive though.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @ablunderfilledlife 21 Feb

You hit the nail on the head. Don't worry, you aren't missing anything.

A question I do have is, who is the plaintiff? Was it the city or state of New York?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

NY says they lost tax dollars

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

State of New York but the Attorney General insists they are looking out for the lenders interest

23 sats \ 1 reply \ @BlokchainB 21 Feb

I haven’t paid much attention to it but I do think the amount of lawfare that goes on is ridiculous. And this is further proof of how unhinged lawyers have become!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

The judge is most unhinged. Lawyers can be unhinged but judges can restrain them

20 sats \ 3 replies \ @td 21 Feb

I think it is bonkers and clearly political. Just look at the statement made by the the Governor of NY, Kathy Hochul, reassuring businesses that they need not worry. Like, what on earth? What is she actually saying?

Facts on the ground are that it does pose a real risk to businesses, most of whom are “guilty“ of the crime that Trump has committed. So right now they are having meetings as to whether they pull the plug on New York or not. Sprinkle in a little bit of bloody minded politics and I imagine we will see them leaving New York.

Actually, maybe this is the catalyst for some kind of American renaissance?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Why anyone would want to do business in NY before this case is beyond me.

It’s surprising that Trump insists on doing business in New York State

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinosphere 22 Feb

Well, he built a skyscraper there, overlooking central park. Kinda hard to just stop doing biz there now.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 24 Feb

A judge has banned him from doing business in NY for 3 years

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @_stacktoshi 21 Feb

I think this is the ruling. There's not much mention of victims or damages, but there is a lot of "falsifying business records" in there including the CEO Allen Weissberg who's currently serving time right now.

I guess you can say the tax authorities might have been a victim once or twice, but that should have no impact in a civil fraud case about getting loans.

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

“He engaged in this massive amount of fraud. It wasn’t just a simple mistake, a slight oversight, the variations are wildly exaggerated, and the extent of the fraud was staggering,” she argued. She then raised a hypothetical situation, saying, “If average New Yorkers went into a bank and submitted false documents, the government would throw the book at them, and the same should be true for former presidents.”

136 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 22 Feb

The US judicial system has spoken. Facts and court decisions are the best system I’ve seen work globally though not perfect. Though, I’m confused on how you can be impeached twice, convicted of rape, and still run for president? I’m aware of all the items on the Biden side as well. Was hoping for some fresh leadership, but not as long as the political pockets are lined with cash for a few families of puppets…

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 21 Feb

I don't. Didn't know it happened. Does not affect my life.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

True but does anything on the news affect your life unless it happens in your neighborhood.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 21 Feb freebie

I get following it. Don't get me wrong. I just don't care about Trump and even less about those obsessed with hating him.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @398ja 22 Feb

Clearly people in power misusing the law to crush political opponents. For exemple, look at what's happening to the anti immigration vdare foundation, also in the US.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Southern Poverty Law Center gets preferential treatment

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 22 Feb

The odds of finding a single skyscraper in all of NYC that isn't greatly overstating it's value are astronomical, if not impossible. The real estate industry there has it's own set of standards.

This was exactly like what they did to Mar a Lago. Democrats have found a way to penalize Trump, alone, for something that everyone does in his industry.

Don't worry though, he's absolutely going to win in november and those stupid judges will be a a real shitstorm then.

13 sats \ 2 replies \ @Malachi17 21 Feb

It's just the latest thing they could stick to Trump. Does anyone remember say, Whitewater? Hell no. Hardly anyone mentions it, and there was a bucket load of wrong there. You could ask Vince Foster, but oops. He suicided!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Of course we remember whitewater and the subsequent shenanigans

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Malachi17 22 Feb

I'm sure you do. "We" does not.

21 sats \ 7 replies \ @windward 22 Feb

For background, he was ordered to pay a penalty of some $300+ million because he overstated the worth of his real estate on loan applications.

To be specific about what he's being accused of in this instance:

Trump exaggerated the size of his Manhattan penthouse apartment by three times. He listed unfinished buildings as if they were complete, and apartments under rent-control as if they were free of such rules. He showed restricted funds as if they were liquid cash. And Trump valued Mar-a-Lago as a single residence, though he had signed away rights to develop it as anything but a club.

Properties like this were used as the basis for loans that were overvalued for what they were worth. He should not have gotten that money based on that criteria.

The perspective of most conservative media is that this was a political hit job on a victimless crime.

counterpoint:

letting such lies to banks slide if those banks don’t take legal action on their own would amount to saying, “if you are rich enough, you are going to be allowed to do it.”

source: https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

From your AP link: And though the bank offered Trump lower interest rates because he had agreed to personally guarantee the loans with his own money, it’s not clear how much better the rates were because of the inflated figures. The bank never complained, and it’s unclear how much it lost, if anything. Bank officials called to testify couldn’t say for sure if Trump’s personal statement of worth had any impact on the rates.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Because this was a civil case the state would only target rich people

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

It’s a loan application. Lenders can reject your application

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @windward 22 Feb

Lenders can reject your application

An interesting question to ask is why a foreign bank would choose not to reject an obviously fraudulent application for funds by a former president.

If you or I would get in trouble for lying like this on forms, why should the president be exempt?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 24 Feb

DB is a German based bank that has a NY charter.

It’s not German collusion

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

All lenders check the value of your assets. It’s called due diligence.

Have you ever applied for a mortgage or line of credit?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

No one would get in trouble unless the bank suffers damages.

The bank would reject your application if they didn’t think you could pay back a loan

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 26 Feb

Nonetheless, Trump remains the 'Trump Card' to save US democracy.

https://m.stacker.news/17527

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 22 Feb

https://m.stacker.news/17100

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Letitia James is dumb as a post

0 sats \ 27 replies \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

“…all developers overstate their property values in a similar way.”

Really? Do they really? Seriously? I’m genuinely curious but my gut tells this is not correct.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Should borrowers who default on student loans be sued?

Isn’t student loan forgiveness a conspiracy to commit fraud?

0 sats \ 25 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Ask any commercial loan officer

0 sats \ 22 replies \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

Actually i know a guy. Ill ask him.

0 sats \ 21 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

2 years ago my agent and I had a disagreement with a lender appraisal about how much rent my townhouse could generate. I can tell you in hindsight the lender appraisal was too low.

Different situation but more evidence that appraisal of market value is subjective

9 sats \ 20 replies \ @windward 22 Feb

2 years ago my agent and I had a disagreement with a lender appraisal about how much rent my townhouse could generate.

I imagine you and your agent at least can agree on the number of floors & rooms in the townhouse. Not even this basic info is something Trump can agree to.

To put this into a fair comparison to what Trump did, this would be like you stating your 4 bed 5 bath townhouse is actually a 16 bed 20 bath, while IRL it has 0 beds and 0 baths because it has not actually been built yet and is still under construction- but you are telling the lender that it is actively being rented out and you are pulling an income.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2024/attorney-general-james-wins-landmark-victory-case-against-donald-trump

A link to 92 page judgement

168 million interest saved fraudulently

126 million in ill gotten gains from sale of Old Post Office

From 2011 to 2021 Trump fraudulently overvalued Mar Lago

… Above are actual statements written by judge Engoron

The damages are based on selective witnesses

Judge also says stark difference in appraisals is evidence of deceit

How is NY the injured party? Why does NY collect all the damages? NY did not loan money or purchase Old Post Office property.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

NY claims disgorgement of ill gotten gains not damages

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @PlebeiusG 23 Feb

They claim insurance fraud, in part.

Did you read the opinion yet??

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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

Your comparison is unfair because it’s completely fabricated.

NY case is based on discrepancies in appraised value, which are subjective

It’s a loan application which any lender can reject.

NY is saying the banks have been damaged but we are keeping the damages.

How much is Mar lago worth?

Trump purchased the land in 1985 for 5 million dollars.

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @PlebeiusG 23 Feb

I wouldn’t call apprised value subjective… but to your point, it’s more of a settled negotiation versus an objective science.

Still… being caught knowingly lying during the process and attempting to hide these attempts toe the line of fraud. There are plenty of cases of wrongdoing thru this process by the Defendant. They can’t be excused with “it’s commonly done in the business” anymore than the homeless who literally poop on the street can excuse it by pointing to the next bum.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

If only NY prosecuted the homeless for public defecation

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

NY would never seek damages from a homeless person. It would be a criminal case.

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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

A lender can reject an application if there is an impasse over collateral valuation.

No one was coerced to approve Trump loan application.

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

This is what I was thinking… if you look into the details of the case, there’s plenty of bad behavior..

Also saying that it’s common practice doesn’t excuse it. Like seriously.

9 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 23 Feb

It’s a voluntary agreement between two private parties.

No one has claimed to be a victim except NY attorney general.

A loan application is a starting point for negotiations between borrower and lender. As someone mentioned earlier the loan was paid back with interest. The bank can claim damages if loan default

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @PlebeiusG 23 Feb

I understand and agree.

There must be some additional details.

Usually I read these court opinions once all is said and done. I’ll have to find the PDF…

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @PlebeiusG 22 Feb

They mark it up as much as trump did?

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

It’s a negotiation, appraisals are subjective, lenders tend to low ball

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kingzing131 22 Feb

I think it's nothing we should be concerned about. Trump has all the resources for an appeal if needed.

At some point this becomes more of a celebrity drama more than anything else.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @RdioActiv 22 Feb

Regardless if he's guilty or not, the optics on this aren't good.

I'm pretty much convinced at this point the Democrats want Trump to win again. A deeply divided nation works to their advantage.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 22 Feb

Thanks for posting this. I was going to post something similar.

The lefty users are remarkably quiet. I expected more Trump derangement syndrome