Why store value in something that inflates forever?

It can't scale to compete with legacy payment systems because ring signatures use more block space than BTC transactions and XMR can't use LN.

It's only useful as a privacy layer for payments.

Most are valid criticisms but don’t understand the last point “if everyone uses it, it gets worse”

Iirc fees go down with more usage and privacy increases as well due to bigger set of UTXOs to use in anonymity 🤔

Edited OP to remove last point. But I'll support it here:

XMR has adaptive block size. If massively adopted, the chain will bloat to ridiculous levels and it will become more difficult to run a full node. This hurts decentralization of the project. Currently, chain size is way smaller than BTC but that's because it's barely used. Thus the anonymity set is currently small.

Another critique: mining with general purpose hardware is a decentralization gain at the expense of a security weakness.

CPU/GPU mining is good for decentralization because more people have access to the hardware.

However, ASICs are good for security because almost every ASIC in existence is currently utilized to defend the network. There isn't a lot of "spare hashpower" to devote towards a coordinated attack.

Whereas, every CPU in the planet not currently mining XMR (probably +98% of all CPU cycles) could be persuaded to attack. I've heard XMR shills say that it's a good thing because in the event of an attack, people will magically decide to defend XMR and start hashing cooperatively. But it could go either way.

Whereas, every CPU in the planet not currently mining XMR (probably +98% of all CPU cycles) could be persuaded to attack.

Botnets are a risk to any CPU/GPU mined crypto.

Blockchain size is absolutely an issue, agreed.

As to the attack angle, that’s well thought out. Instead of attacking, maybe honestly analyzing the pros and cons of both ASIC and ASIC-resistance would benefit both ecosystems. 🙃

What about my analysis of pros and cons was dishonest?

I meant that more for the XMR community, instead of criticizing you, they should be addressing the valid concerns you raised.

Agree. XMR is great. I don't even "dislike" it. When privacy is priority, it's a great option to have. It's just a different set of tradeoffs that's competing for a different kind of use case.


We lean the same way. It’s each tool for its purpose.

Why mix your coins with drug dealers?

There is no coin mixing in Monero as there is no way to trace coins 🙃

It is perfectly fungible. No one knows where they came from, where they’re going and which coins are going in what amount.

Mixing with dirty coins is only a problem with transparent ledgers. 🙂

There is no coin mixing in Monero as there is no way to trace coins

No mixing but every transaction is technically a big coinjoin.

...With confidential amounts. BTC can't do that part.

You litteraly talking about Coinjoins, where u can potentially spend with a terrorist or drug dealer or any bad guy.

Again….If your rulers make it illegal to send money to your mom, you’re a bad guy too.

This is naive and childish.

Also, how will anyone know who you are spending with?

Monero transactions don’t show

  1. Where they are coming from
  2. Where they are going
  3. What amount is being spent
  4. And there are 11 decoy transactions mixed with the real one

Again, do your research because you sound like an NPC just parroting what you see on TV. 🙃

Monero was delisted from many exchanges if someone is navie definitely not me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are just proving the point. 🙃

That would be argument for monero actually. Check why was it delisted.

Exactly 🙃

These same people would happily KYC till the day they are led to the gulag because “we don’t have anything to hide”…right then why don’t you poop with the toilet door open in public. 😅

It's only useful as a privacy layer for payments.

Monero's exact use case is private digital cash. Send, receive, earn and spend money worldwide and without restrictions. No bank account, government ID or permission required. As private as a physical cash transaction.

Monero's inflation rate is currently 0.87% (currently less than Bitcoin and gold, and much lower than fiat) and will trend toward 0% over time (disinflationary). More info here: https://i.ibb.co/G9YM10T/Monero-Supply.png

In addition, some Layer 2 implementations for Monero are being discussed, but right now, it isn't necessary because TX fees are less than 1 cent, blocktimes are 2 minutes and 0-conf TXs are relatively safe (there is no replace-by-fee in Monero).

Why store value in something that inflates forever?

I think Monero isn't meant to be a means of storing purchasing power.

How do you exchange value with monero if you don't hold value in monero? The idea of being a medium of exchange without being a store of value is nonsense. It must have value stored in it if you want people to give you goods and services in exchange for it.

Back when Bitcoin started people had the same question.

Then darknet markets started using it: it had value and was exchanged for things with Value

Then it started being exchanged for real stuff

Now we’re here.

Bitcoin has been replaced on darknet markets by Monero.

Even Satoshi himself said he wished he could implement the features but lacked the knowledge and also Schnorr Sigs were under a patent while he was already developing Bitcoin.

Again, if you wanna see the macro view, your answer for Monero’s value will be obvious.

Or you could be like the people who denied Bitcoin in its early days, me included, and repeat the mistake.

That’s all. 🙃

"x will grow in value" does not make x a good money. Lots of bad things capture value. Monero is another centrally managed money which unfairly rewards the people who control it. Bitcoin exists to set people free from centrally managed unfair money like monero.

Who are the people that control XMR? And how do they unfairly benefit?

XMR has nodes and miners that follow a set of consensus rules just like BTC does. It's not just another smart contract token with a pre-mine where the contract is loosely defined or able to be changed by a privileged few.

Montero can't be audited. That means it is fundamentally untrustworthy, because you can't verify the inflation peomises. Bitcoin fixed that already.

It can be. Please see XMR sub for how. 🙃

It CAN be audited. However, an inflation bug could exist without being detected. If an inflation bug was exploited in BTC it would be obvious.

As posted in a different comment, Monero uses cryptographic range-proofs to verify supply (nodes verify the range-proofs of each TX). In addition, a Python script to externally audit supply is under development: https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/monero-inflation-checker.html

Auditing that can't detect an inflation "bug" isn't auditing you can trust.

Agreed. I never hold XMR for more then a couple minutes so if I get debased in that time, it's an acceptable tradeoff for me.

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Monero is what Bitcoin wants to be.

You are very very misinformed. 🙃

How do you exchange value with monero if you don't hold value in monero?

How do you exchange value with a credit card if you don't hold value in a credit card? Is your question serious?

You hold and exchange value in whatever you want to and when you need the anonymity of Monero you exchange it for Monero, make the Monero transaction and the receiver exchanges it back. It's a tool like a screwdriver.

That being sad, all of Moneros usecases have been solved in Lightning.

You can't receive an LN payment without disclosing your node pubkey (and by extension, all your channels which can be probed to reveal how much money you have). Meanwhile, you can receive XMR and nobody can see your wallet balance. So XMR still has a use case not solved in LN.

Well, send Lightning to custodial BlueWallet or someting and forward to the actual destination

Or send money to ln.cash and give out the link.

Or send it via swap like fixedfloat.com

Sure, there's ways to avoid leaking privacy when using BTC. But this requires a deep understanding of the tradeoffs. Meanwhile XMR does privacy by default which is great for people just seeking privacy without a desire to understand tradeoffs.

Avoiding leaking privacy requires a deep understanding, period.

That is a well reasoned and accurate statement 🙃

Someone else said it too! 🙃

Yes. The Monero community really wants it to be used as a currency and not a store of value.

Will it be a decentralized currency but only for a tiny market size? Or will it become less decentralized as market demand approaches BTC?

I feel like it's the former. I often hear XMR people say "mass adoption isn't the be-all-end-all". I see it as a tool for the relatively few occasions where value transactional privacy is very important.

Kind of like a Swiss Bank Account in your pocket 🙃

A lot to cover here, and thankfully I have already responded to all of these points in a blog post:


It's important people understand that Monero is more scalable when used privately than Bitcoin and can support Lightning Network-like layer two's, I even gave a presentation on some of the approaches that have been proposed at Monerokon this year.

Thanks for never giving up on the good fight. :)