For the Love of Territories, Zap Big and Zap Often \ stacker news ~meta

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For the Love of Territories, Zap Big and Zap Often

6838 sats \ 98 comments \ @Undisciplined 19 Jul meta

It's been a while since I've scolded everyone for their miserliness. The recent archiving of some popular territories inspired me to make another attempt. Plus, there are quite a few new stackers who haven't been scolded, yet.

I'll keep this one short and sweet:

Territory owners need to make about 100 kilosats per month.
They earn their sats through posting fees.
OP's need to recoup their posting costs through zaps.

Therefore, when there's content you like, zap big and zap often.

If there's a lack of content you like, cowboy up and write it yourself. We just might make it worth your while.

Zapping more can pay for itself through the rewards system (see: #287074 and #473181)

Also, zapping more will make Stacker News more aligned with what you want it to be: #523858.

view all related items

220 sats \ 3 replies \ @OneOneSeven 19 Jul

@Undisciplined, if you have a second, I found a bug with subscribing and notifications, if you could reply something/anything to these three items, I can get a little more info for @k00b and co.

#614066 (this post)
#614069 (comment in the post)
#614241 (one of your comments in this post)

130 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Done

34 sats \ 1 reply \ @OneOneSeven 19 Jul

Thank you!

82 sats \ 0 replies \ @OneOneSeven 19 Jul

https://github.com/stackernews/stacker.news/issues/1268

554 sats \ 26 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 19 Jul

It should be possible to donate directly to the territory and when the owner went to pay the rent he would only pay what was missing.

141 sats \ 18 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

Yes, I agree with this. The proper solution to me is crowfunding. For the most cherished territories there are at the very least 100 active stackers that could donate sparingly throughout the month to reach a 1000 quota. And if the territory is that used it wouldn't even need that much. If people gives out 100 sats in a day, each day for ten days, for posts and comments, why wouldn't they (and me) for the territory itself? For that there has to be a way to make it feel natural to zap the territory just like with any post. And that could be a ranking of territories, like "most rewarding to users".

54 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker 19 Jul

These are some good ideas, but isn't the more straightforward solution to subject territory costs to market pricing? Or an auction mechanism?

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

At first I see it exactly like a P2P, where your territory is the exchange marketplace, and users can pay a small fee for a right to place an offer (which must always be there to decrease spam), and then you get a fee from the exchange (in this case, the zap a reader gives to a post). I think abstracting things down to a P2P exchange actually solves a lot of situations.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 19 Jul

The current fee structure is too rigid

How many territories are archived per month?

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

I haven't taken the time to think through what the right mechanism would be, but you're right that a uniform cost is probably sub-optimal.

I would hazard a guess that some sort of auction would be best: perhaps having an earning goal in mind and selling enough territories to meet it.

The problem there is that I think they want people to be able to create territories instantly and don't want to be organizing and running auctions all the time.

33 sats \ 13 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

It could even be an option on your posts, to forward sats to the territory.

34 sats \ 12 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

I though it was working that way already, maybe percentages should increase?

A neat balance would be to make publishing on the territory cheaper, but make percentage on the gains bigger. Both parameters should be adjustable by the territory owner. Maybe even granting better deals to the stacker with bigger trust scores, to incentive fidelity.

13 sats \ 11 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

They get half of the posting fee, so it's a fixed amount per post.

I believe the idea is to roll out far more policy levers for territory owners in the future.

65 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 19 Jul

Yes, I think part of the problem is that territory development has stalled as a result of the more pressing wallet needs right now.

77 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

That and the referral upgrade (which seems to be working really well). I'm sure there's no shortage of things on k00b's to-do list.

55 sats \ 8 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

Ok, then yes, a policy on a percentage on the gains should be implemented. That's a better deal, because it allows posting to be cheaper, so that you don't risk much in case of bad performance, in exchange of maybe paying more in gain percentage than would solely with a fixed post fee, if the post is successful enough. That sounds like a much better balance and would motivate people to publish more often, for maybe the high post fees are also a reason posting is relatively meagre.

33 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

maybe the high post fees are also a reason posting is relatively meagre

That's part of the spirit of this post. We can directly address this, before the SN team develop new tools, by just zapping good posts a little more. The posting fees only seem high, because of the expected return on posting.

One way or another, it comes back to us and how much we're willing to support the content we want.

55 sats \ 6 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

It does comes back to us but protocols are important if we aspire to be a large scale community. It can't just reliably be left to good will, a proper protocol for calculations must be in place so that everything just self-balances. Pure applied libertarianism, for the same reasons.

view replies

66 sats \ 0 replies \ @OneOneSeven 19 Jul

That'd be cool. You might have to show who is renting and who has fully bought their territory, though. I've seen it discussed once, maybe there's been more talk around that and idk what the right answer is.

Maybe an option for founders to show/hide the territory payment status?

84 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 19 Jul

I agree with @grayruby. This is a great idea.

118 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

I agree. @jeff's been doing fundraisers every month for ~econ, but it would be nice to have this as a general feature.

55 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 19 Jul

OMG yes, and tracking it, would be so much easier too. Attribution especially. I'm terrified I'm going to miss or mismatch somebody's donation with their name.

SN could also just make it public. Through the site.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 19 Jul

This is a great idea.

13 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Testing

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 19 Jul

1 2 3

115 sats \ 1 reply \ @Athena 20 Jul

I've increased my default ⚡ by 1000%

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 20 Jul

Hot damn!

167 sats \ 5 replies \ @TNStacker 19 Jul

And go ⚡Zap your fav photos in ~Photography!

Rent is due!

261 sats \ 2 replies \ @OneOneSeven 19 Jul

@Malos10_ shares awesome photos there.

I know this post is about stackers but non-stackers need to understand that I can directly and instantly support a Venezuelan street photographer 3,000 miles away, while I'm waiting in line to order lunch.

118 sats \ 0 replies \ @Malos10_ 20 Jul

thanks really much man!

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 19 Jul

Absolutely! Thanks for this mention!!!

139 sats \ 1 reply \ @Carresan 19 Jul

Being a regular there!

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 19 Jul

I can verify

119 sats \ 9 replies \ @Coinsreporter 19 Jul

Zap big and zap often! Yes, you're right it has to be taught. I see many new stackers are zapping 1 to 9 sats on posts and comments! Does it really count when someone zaps so less?

24 sats \ 8 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

That's how I started, so I don't want to judge. My hope is that people will see the value of zapping more.

42 sats \ 7 replies \ @Coinsreporter 19 Jul

I'm also not judging just asking if zapping less than 10 sats really counts for the leaderboard rank?

29 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

I think most days an early zap of just a few sats can probably get you on the leaderboard. I'm not sure, but based on what @0xbitcoiner has noticed, the leaderboard barely fills up most days.

35 sats \ 5 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 21 Jul

maybe i explained myself wrong, what i noticed a few weeks ago was that the leadearboard was taking longer to fill up. But the list ended up being completed later in the day.

46 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 21 Jul

I'm inferring "barely fills up" from "taking longer to fill up", which isn't necessarily valid. The point, though, is that it doesn't always take much to get on the board.

35 sats \ 2 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 21 Jul

right. i have that idea too. i've seen quite a few with only 1 sat spent on a comment.

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 21 Jul

To be on the leaderboard, there must either be a top (near top) comment or a top post (near top) by you.

view replies

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 21 Jul

Just a few early zaps, few comments and zapping on top posts and comments will get you on the leaderboard...

42 sats \ 5 replies \ @IamSINGLE 19 Jul

https://m.stacker.news/40498

24 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Wait, do you not use dark mode?

42 sats \ 3 replies \ @IamSINGLE 19 Jul

No, why? should I?

24 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

I guess it's personal preference. I'm just surprised when people don't use it, because I find it so much easier on my eyes.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 19 Jul

I find 'light mode with low backlight and eye comfort mode on' so much easier.

https://m.stacker.news/40507

55 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 19 Jul

I am a light mode maxi on laptop and a dark mode maxi on mobile.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 19 Jul

This is very true. Post original content, too. I have found even simple original content does better than most other types.

82 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 19 Jul

Is it possible to form a group and split the costs of the territory? 10 people paying 10k sats sounds about right.

162 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

No, but I believe that's something they want to do in the future. You could do it informally, but that would require trust and there would be no enforcement mechanism.

82 sats \ 1 reply \ @jeff 19 Jul

I'm patiently waiting for features to make more engaging incentives local to the territory. We need games. And SN shouldn't be the only game to play. There is so much more you can do, if the incentives were composable, and there were slightly more sats flowing around. I'd build the features myself if I didn't have a day-job.

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

We'll get there. It's still early.

82 sats \ 3 replies \ @Carresan 19 Jul

I will tell my personal way. I have been only two months in SN. It’s true at the beginning I was zapping small amounts. I have set myself a bigger amount though still low. I will increase it from today. Personally I have been zapping 21 to posts and 10-13 to comments. Will go up and double them from now on. I know other still zapping more: eventually will get there

34 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

https://m.stacker.news/40480

34 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Testing

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Carresan 19 Jul

Haha done!

82 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 19 Jul

Yeah, zap me big, head to ~science :)

82 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 19 Jul

Zap unto others as you would have them zap unto you.

It’s in the bible people. Haha

73 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Good point

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @jowo 20 Jul

wonder if a dynamic price structure for territories could help with this. e.g. price territories as a proportion of total monthly zaps on SN

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 20 Jul

It's a good thought. Territory price could just be the previous month's average territory revenue, or something like that.

They've mentioned being very reluctant to change it, because they don't really want people speculating on the price action.

65 sats \ 7 replies \ @Natalia 19 Jul

I just adjusted my default zap today:)

92 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Awesome!

I'll be curious to hear how that works out.

22 sats \ 5 replies \ @Natalia 19 Jul

and secretly cooking for some nice content other than Bitcoin:)

92 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Looking forward to it.

I was actually planning on writing about Fallout, but I needed to get this out of my brain first.

34 sats \ 3 replies \ @Natalia 19 Jul

Fallout

the TV show? 😂

52 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Yeah, it had an insane twist that some of us were chatting about. I think there might be something interesting in it, even though it seemed incredibly stupid.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Natalia 19 Jul

I havent watch any TV show for a while 🙊

35 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

That was the first new show I had watched in quite a while.

reply on another page

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @plebpoet 19 Jul

If there's a lack of content you like, cowboy up and write it yourself. We just might make it worth your while.

wonderful line right there, just thought it needed extra appreciatin'

63 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

Thank you. It actually did take me a couple tries to craft it.

55 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 19 Jul

Zap till it hurts

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 19 Jul

I never cease to be amazed by how staunch Stackers’ support for SN is - to the extent that many don’t mind undertaking an as-yet-losing venture by launching territories

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

God bless 'em.

42 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 19 Jul

We need to change the territory fee structure?

bitcoin_mining is new

13 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

What do you think would work better?

Keep in mind that this is the primary way SN raises revenue (at least that's my understanding), so it has to be enough to support operations and development.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 19 Jul

I'm not sure

100k per month is high when starting a new territory

100k is about 66 bucks right now ... what happens when btc price gets to $150k or higher?

maybe we have too many territories or maybe this will get better with sub-territories

23 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

The margins here are tight. If we have 50'ish territories, then SN is bringing in 5M'ish sats per month. That's not enough to support a full-time staff, unless bitcoin goes to $150k+.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 19 Jul

I understand

I don't have any good ideas ... right now

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @jakoyoh629 19 Jul

I never thought about it that way, and I didn't know the territories needed this help so badly. I agree that we should be able to donate directly to them. You've really highlighted an important issue for our community.

34 sats \ 4 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

I prefer @0xbitcoiner take on this. What I like of SN is that it tries to develop the community around an internal economy logic and best results will be achieved if we stick to that: no scolding, but incentives. If we require scolding, it means there are no incentives, so the problem is somewhere else. In this case what's failing is the financing scheme, for which my take is the one I replied to @0xbitcoiner comment.

Don't get me wrong on "no scolding", my emphasis on incentives also consider negative incentives: gain and loss. That's the proper compass.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

"Scolding" is tongue-in-cheek. I actually want people to realize that the incentives are to zap more, because they'll get it back in rewards and it helps support the entire ecosystem.

Edit: To the extent that I am actually scolding anyone, it's for not understanding the incentives. People can be as miserly as they want, afaic.

55 sats \ 2 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

Oh don't worry! I got it that way, don't worry :P

What I meant was that nothing but the incentives can talk, if we seek for a long-term viable strategy. Posting to motivate people can be a nice companion, but can't be the strategy in itself, it will wear out quickly, even with the best of intentions on the other side.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Jul

nothing but the incentives can talk

That's my feeling exactly. What I'm trying to do is nudge people towards the incentivized behavior, because bitcoiners have strong biases that keep them well below it.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @didiplaywell 19 Jul

You did well at reporting the issue. 99% of us are not territory owners so we just assume everything is ok. Now that we know it's not, it's time to set up a proper scheme.