What is the difference between permissionless and censorship resistant? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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What is the difference between permissionless and censorship resistant?

4666 sats \ 40 comments \ @Scoresby 7 Sep bitcoin

I often find myself using the term censorship resistant in connection with Bitcoin but occasionally others will say that I should be saying permissionless.

Beyond just looking up the definitions of these two terms, how do you feel they differ (if at all)?

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171 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b 7 Sep

It'd probably be more accurate to say permission minimized in any case.

The difference between the words that I feel is mostly a matter which part of the information lifecycle is being discussed. Permission minimization feels more relevant when information is broadcast or released and censorship resistant feels more relevant when we discuss information's durability.

In the context of bitcoin, there isn't much difference. Censorship and the opportunity to deny permission happen at the same time. In other systems, like nostr, it's permissionless to make a note and permission minimal in aggregate to request a note be stored on many relays, but their censorship resistance likely degrades some with time.

184 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 7 Sep

Here's an example: if I want to spend some coins that have been through a mixer and the state of mining is such that I have a hard time getting my transaction mined, would that mean Bitcoin has become permissioned or censored?

(Censorship resistant is a horribly clunky term for which I'd love to have an alternative, but permission minimized might be even worse...no matter how accurate it is.)

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 7 Sep

For bitcoin, I think they're synonymous. So perhaps use permission(ed|less) with regard to bitcoin.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 7 Sep

Both terms are also connected in my mind to peer-to-peer but in the sense of a network where there are only peers.

What I want out of any of these terms is the ability to describe this wonderful thing that is the exchange of value directly between two entities, where all participants are on an equal footing and there is no authority who is in charge.

So permissionless is good because it implies no one can stop you from becoming one of these sovereign peers.

Censorship resistant is good because it implies no other peer can stop you from following the protocol.

P2P is nice because it implies there is no hierarchy.

It really is like we dont have an adequate word for this quality.

182 sats \ 3 replies \ @handtomouth 8 Sep

No KYC = permissionless

No Moderator = censorship resistant

105 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 8 Sep

This is an interesting distinction. I'll admit I hadn't thought of KYC as permissioning a system so much as setting it up for the state to come after you at some later date.

If I sign up to a the bitcoin-dev mailing list, don't have to provide any kind of KYC info. But, I wouldn't call it permissionless. My emails may not get to the list because of moderators. So it is certainly not censorship resistant, but on the other hand I'm not sure that a lack of KYC = permissionless-ness.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @handtomouth 8 Sep

In case it is still not sinking in. KYC is being imposed by the Finanacial Institutions to trace the people whom are using the Bitcoin Network if your typical setup is you are in the middle of the jungle and you have no ID and then somebody taught you how to properly use the Bitcoin network. You can easily bypass their dragnet simply because the added technological layers running on top of Bitcoin Core e.g. online wallets is not in your Bitcoin toolkit. If you surrender to KYC you are always asking them for permission to use the system since you don’t know how to circumvent their dragnet like KYC. Therefore, if there is no KYC there is permissionless system

117 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Sep

You aee wrong. KYC is only for fiat ramps. Not for BTC.

119 sats \ 2 replies \ @BTCLNAT 7 Sep

Censorship resistance refers to the freedom to transact, protection against confiscation, and immutability of transactions.

1 Freedom of transaction: Third parties cannot prevent you from sending or receiving assets.

2 Freedom from confiscation: Third parties cannot remove or freeze your assets.

3 The immutability of transactions: It is almost impossible for third parties to change transactions after they have been made.

Without permission: synonym ILLEGALLY

For me very clear. Bitcoin is censorship resistant not without permission.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Sep

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 7 Sep

Interesting. I had not connected permissionless with illegal. I guess I associate permissionless with there being no need for permission rather than associating it with needing permission but disregarding whether it has been given.

But I tend to use censorship resistant far more than I use permissionless.

173 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 7 Sep

Bitcoin is permission-less, meaning you can purchase, own, store, and transact without needing the permission of any entity. You need permission to use and transact through the banking system.

Banks can censor your transactions, reject your transactions, withhold your funds, etc. even before you've been adjudicated.

123 sats \ 0 replies \ @flat24 8 Sep

"Permissionless" or "uncensored" I think they don't differ much. But I'd definitely go with the "Permissionless" option. Of the many favorable features of Bitcoin, this is one of the most important, I would even dare to say the most important. The ability to manage, safeguard, transfer, inherit, take with you anywhere and more, without the need to request approval from anyone else is one of the most powerful things on the planet. Having the freedom to hoard our wealth without permission is the best thing that has happened to human beings at the beginning of this millennium.

104 sats \ 3 replies \ @synergymatrix 8 Sep

If you can use it with a simple computer and Block Stream Satellite it is permission less. If it is protected by 51% of total mining operation then it is censorship resistant. Incidentally we are talking about Bitcoin.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 8 Sep

Is it permissionless if Blockstream can turn off their feed at will?

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @stacksofsats 8 Sep

So you think that it will be beneficial for the design of a satellite service to choose whom will use it. Do you even think that if you have made proper precautions it will know who you are. And if you change your hardware your wallet and position will it be able to deny service.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Sep

Good question!

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @longlifelearner20 8 Sep

it may sounds like the same let alone relating to bitcooin as censorship resistant even though it is publicly available but still encrypted but at the same time i feel like the word permissionless wouldn't fit in this sense actually.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitalion 8 Sep

They are two different terms that are present in the nature of Bitcoin, which is censorship resistant means that when you enter the system and make transactions no one can block them, and if a node or pool did the same, the transaction could be accepted in the next block. Being permissive makes bitcoin usable by anyone anywhere and at any time, they can enter and leave on equal terms. Let's say you acquire a miner and start mining, no one would stop you, not even the big mining companies.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Msd0457890 7 Sep

When I started my journey in Bitcoin I know that I became a free and Uncensored being, which leads me to never ask anyone's permission about what to do or say.

102 sats \ 3 replies \ @TheBitcoinPhysio 7 Sep freebie

When I don’t think about it they sound synonymous to me. However, when I think about it, my brain tells me they do differ… but I can’t explain it… so I must not understand the difference. Here’s my best go about it: Permissionless means I don’t need to ask anyone, and censorship resistance means nobody can change or hide or stop my thoughts / energy / money. So in theory something could be permissionless, but may not be censorship resisted?

121 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 7 Sep

Yes, that is almost where I came out: permissionless feels like it is about joining the network while censorship resistant feels like it is about behavior in the network. But it's easy to see how they could be synonymous.

38 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheBitcoinPhysio 7 Sep

Can something truly be permissionless if it’s not censorship resistant? I feel like one has to be true for the other one to be true…

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 7 Sep

Yeah, it's what makes me think they are synonymous. And yet it does seem like some people have a preference for one or the other and I'm curious if there is a strong feeling about the meanings that I'm not aware of.

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @Golu 8 Sep

Permissionless means when you don't need to comply. Censorship means freedom to post anything.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 8 Sep

"Permissionless" is the better wording than "censorship resistance" because every permissionless system is inherently censorship resistant: If you can join pseudonomysly and permissionless, you can circumvent censorships. The vice versa is not true: a system that is censorship resistant is not necessarily permissionless: e.g. a secret and exclusive group can circumvent censorship but is not permissionless.

Therefore "permissionless" is the better word.

97 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cowboy 8 Sep

For Bitcoin:

Permissionless : Anyone can participate in the Bitcoin network without needing approval from a central authority. This means anyone can send transactions, mine, or run a node freely.

Censorship-Resistant : Once a Bitcoin transaction is confirmed, it cannot be reversed or blocked. The decentralized nature of the network ensures no single entity can censor transactions.

Both features work together: Bitcoin's open, permissionless system allows for decentralized, censorship-resistant transactions.

82 sats \ 0 replies \ @kruw 8 Sep

This is what censorship resistance means:

I guess the term 'permissionless' is a higher bar. Maybe you would have to be your own miner to fall into that category?

80 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 8 Sep

W.r.t. speech, if you can post without anyone's permission it's permissionless. If no one can take it down it's censorship resistant.

An example that's one and not the other would be creating a clearnet website. Anyone can do it without permission, but if it has content a powerful tyrant doesn't like it can be taken down, so it's not censorship resistant.

Bitcoin is both permissionless and censorship resistant.

138 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 8 Sep

Requiring permission is one form of censorship. It's censorship "up front", i.e. preventing even the possibility of someone speaking, transacting, etc. by denying access to a platform.

17 sats \ 2 replies \ @nostrman 8 Sep

Technically there is no difference.

121 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 8 Sep

Imagine a world where most mining was centralized and governments leaned on the miners to exclude transactions coming from addresses on the OFAC sanctions list.

You might be able to join the bitcoin network (run a node, hold your own keys) without asking permission. But if you had coins on that list you would be in danger of being censored.

You could say, 'Well, in that case, bitcoin is not permissionless.' But was it permissionless back when such miners only held 40% of the hashrate? Or when they had 51% and weren't bending the knee to the state?

Bitcoin is permissionless in that you can run any version of bitcoin you want to verify the chain and transactions you receive but I dont think it is permissionless when it comes to how you spend your coins. But I think censorship resistant is a better term because it also implies something about being free to move your coins around.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Sep

If miners start censoring certain txs, then devs will change the code (fork) and fuck them.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 8 Sep

I think they are one in the same! I use both of these equally

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @heuristics 8 Sep

If there is less than 0% human intervention it is permissionless and censorship resistant. No difference.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satoshi__Nakamoto 7 Sep

Don't know Going to read comment

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Gian 7 Sep

Is the same of corsairs and pirates...

117 sats \ 0 replies \ @21_ 8 Sep

great thread!

You made the news: https://www.bitesizebitcoin.xyz/news/what-is-the-difference-between-permissionless-and-censorship-resistant

117 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 8 Sep

Yes are diferrent terms and implucations. You can have and not another or both.

Perimissionless = I don't need any permission to use it, no restrictions to use it

Censorship resistant = nobody can censor my txs

If you only use bitcoin and no touch of fiat world, you have both. People mentioning KYC are wrong, kyc is ONLY for fiat ramps, not for BTC.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @falsefaucet 8 Sep

how i see the two

permissionless is in the word, you dont need someones permission to do or use something

censorship resistant , you may be in a permissionless system, but it could be subject to censorship via reach and scope