What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Nov. 5th will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Nov. 4th?
Yes, that's right.
If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Nov. 5th?
To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:
- If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
- If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.
If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Nov. 5th?
- When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
- When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
What are "Cowboy Credits"?
SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.
So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?
That's right. That's the only difference.
What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Nov. 5th?
Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.
Even if I don't attach an external wallet?
Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Nov. 5th are:
- Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
- Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.
Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?
No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.
Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?
No, they do not.
What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
I have more questions about Nov 5th. Where can I ask them?
In this thread. Ask me anything.
I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.
Please email me.
I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
In this thread.
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?
We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Nov. 5th.
What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
I'm a bit tired, so I am probably misunderstanding this point. If I have an external receiving wallet, but the person zapping me does not have an external sending wallet, he will send me cowboy credits? This means that even with both types of external wallets linked to my account, I may still end up with cowboy credits?
yes
So, to get rid of these credits, I need to zap someone else with them? Will there be a priority ranking between using those credits or my external wallet whenever credits are still available?
Just tried attaching a wallet. Can someone zap me to see if it works please? Also, what do I do with the last 10 sats that in the SN wallet?
So someone just zapped me, but it still went to my SN wallet balance (now 16 sats...) and not my linked wallet...what do I do?
Review your wallet logs as it means the route/payment couldn't be completed.
The might not be very descriptive atm, but ek is working on improvements to them currently.
Ha ha this is a clever way to address the myriad of questions you will get but you didn’t answer the most important one that you will likely get.
“What wallets can I use and how the heck do I do this”
I mean if I can figure it out so can everyone else but I don’t think “figure it out” should be the response.
Did you say attach wallet to SN? Here you go :)
I am going to make a post with all these links and forward the sats to you.
I hear you.
Thank you.
Okay, 3 things:
Cowboy hats off!
It will cause a lot of confusion for old folks but for noobs the effect of the changes will be negligible. Anyway, thank you SN for changing your old rules.
I'm in my 60s. It's not rocket science.
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Why do you think so?Why do you think so?
Good post and explanation. That doesn't mean you won't be getting a flood of unwarranted shit.
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This comment warms my heart
My opinion on the motivation for this aside, the UX for wallet connections simply isn't there to support this...
So I've posted a $300 bounty for SN to integrate NIP-69 and NIP-68, which offer far superior UX, better security, and scalability than is currently possible with other wallet connections.
Perhaps others can chip in...
https://github.com/stackernews/stacker.news/issues/1478
Can you give us an idea of how this implementation would improve the UX? It would be great if it simplifies the process. Would a stacker need to have nostr keys, or would that be unnecessary (like NWC)?
I'm involuntarily off-grid again, so apologies for the brevity...
This flips the nostr pairing scheme on its head vs NWC and adds a new user property, so that you simply provide a lightning addresses and approve (or deny) the request in your wallet
(The wallet has nostr keys for communication, you don't have to yourself in the social sense, or even know about it)
NIP-69 you can think of like nostr-native bolt12 or lnurl-p, and NIP-68 is the reverse to complete the flow.
There's more detailed justification in the respective NIPs and conversations, but here's a video clip: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1529#issuecomment-2400364120
Bounty should be denominated in sats. Just sayin
Apologies for using this thread as a support thread, but I got good answers here before so may as well keep trying.
Is the attached wallet functionality dependent on the device you're on?
I got a different UX while logged onto SN from my phone than my desktop. I set up attached wallets with Alby/NWC from my desktop, and after a bit of jerry-rigging, it all worked fine. I can zap and it will automatically send using my Alby Wallet. I can get zapped and I will automatically receive it into my Alby wallet.
However, when I try to zap from my phone, a lightning invoice appears, which is different behavior from the desktop.
Both devices are accessing SN from Chromium.
We don’t store sending credentials on our server so they need to be input on each device. We should have device sync (encrypted) before Nov 5, but for now sending wallets need to be input on each device they’re used.
Got it thanks.
Is there no way to show the attached wallet's balance at the top right?
That green zero is very very sad.
lol we were discussing this this morning. We might show a wallet status indicator instead.
@koob just curious why reward sats for territory owners are not cowboy credits? Aren't you in custody of territory owner's money and therefore hitting the money transmitter issues?
Because we are choosing to pay that money to territory owners on daily basis. Even if it were "custody," my understanding is that territory owners are like merchants and SN is like a Shopify and custody of revenues in such cases does not qualify as money transmission.
The distinction is subtle but again, just my understanding, is that the poster/commenter/zapper doesn't not spend with the intent of giving the territory founder money. SN isn't taking custody of money as party A gives it to party B. SN is merely cutting the territory founder into SN's own revenue like it does with rewards - albeit more predictably.
Lol 😂 !
How are all these asking you even a question after reading this? You've already declared that it's just imposed. Hey, don't take me wrong, sometimes it's better to impose good things.
I don't have any question because all sorted out before in the conversations and a few guides.
Initially, I thought it would be very difficult but it's as easy as it can be.
But, I will be with the dying/decaying SN wallet until the last moment to console it and when RIP, I'll pay my homage and then only attach. (Though I've done it before).
Thank you @k00b for making us learn the true sovereignty. Long live Zaps and Long live SN!
lmao :)
I found this hilarious, too.
He knows the crowd well.
Ok, so I have two questions:
Fuck yes
What a great faq! Can you point me to the post that describes whats going on with withdrawals being only 70%? Will that continue?
Those aren't withdrawals. Those are zaps. Although we haven't updated the copy to distinguish between them that so it's our fault. i.e. if you withdraw sats from your wallet, there is no such fee.
As of this release, zaps are subject to a 30% sybil fee - up from 10% prior.
Will CCs be yellow?
They might be yella. I haven't thought to visualize them yet. Fool's gold is mostly what comes to mind.
So the sats people leave on SN, do they become Reward Sats on Nov 5?
In order to be fully attached to the alby extension, these two must be active?
Are you using Alby hub? If so, you can set up a NWC send and receive attachment very easily.
I don't have an Alby Hub yet. I like to wait a while to find out more about the pros and cons, as well as other people's experiences. Maybe with this change in SN I'll make the switch sooner. But I'd like to know if it's possible to be on SN and send/receive sats with just the Alby extension.
I'm confused with as this as well. Alby NWC gives me one string, and the NWC setting on SN needs two strings one for send and one for receive... So I just set my NWC as send.. and my receive I used my LN address to my node... So... Am.. am I doing this right?
You need to connect to SN twice. Then you get two strings. One should be set to read-only. See #698497.
What provoked this change?
P.S: Is that the reason my cowboy hat days stopped being counted?
They are still counted. We just changed the way they are displayed on profiles. You have to hover over the hat to see the days now.
Btw, @K00b I love this approach to "miserable" souls 🤣😂
In this thread.
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
whats this 'real bitcoin'?
you mean to tell me koob, ive been getting fake bitcoin
/s
I haven’t paid close attention to the GraphQL mutations for creating items with respect to paying invoices on demand. Is it the case that as long as your account has an external spending wallet configured, the spending wallet should be used automatically and an API client shouldn’t have to do anything with the spending wallet directly?
Edit: I’m asking for my automated bot comments. They’ve been mostly working with my external spending wallet configured, but occasionally they fail and I notice that in my notifications later
For automated things I’d use cowboy credits which won’t require additional work.
If your account doesn’t have enough cowboy credits to perform the action, the response returns an invoice that needs to be paid by the client (we don’t store spending permissions on the server). If the invoice goes unpaid we send that notification.
Thank you, I think that all makes sense. And I should have remembered that spending permissions aren’t stored!
@siggy47 you use proton wallet right?
Have you successfully attached it for both send and receive, if so how easy was it? I don't tech good.
I use proton for everything BUT the wallet. Sorry. I don't know anything about it. I wonder if @DarthCoin or @supratic know?
No I do not use Proton wallet and I haven't tested. Not sure if I really have interest in it. Is really weird and not really handy to link a wallet to an email. I like to keep that totally separate.
Even for LN addresses, I like to use decoy ones (not my real private domain names).
LN addresses with my own domains are strictly for personal private use, not public.
For public use the custodial ones are just fine and a perfect decoy.
It doesn't have a lightning wallet so it won't work for this. The best send/recieve solutions people have found so far:
Cheers k00b I just got access to it and thought I couldn't find any lightning details. I'll use one of the other solutions much appreciated bud 👊
A big big shout out for the writing style.
Man, I have all the questions because I hardly understand but I know someone and I'll hire him for all of this.
Just tell me if there are any security tradeoffs if I get it done by someone else?
I've learnt that Sats will be the future money so I don't wanna take a risk. Can I believe someone or I learn it how to do?
Yes, that someone else will have access to your money.
Sorry to digress.. but what is the meaning of the little 🐎 and 🔫 next to the 🤠 ?
New easter eggs: #721818
Smart
remember remember...
Finally got around to setting up my wallet with Coinos. So far it is working great!
This guide was very helpful: #694593
There are a bunch of horses and guns waiting to be distributed! 🔫 🐎 🤠
But wait, what is going to bake cowboy credits, and how are they going to be released to the market? Limited supply or infinite brrrr?
I think they will be created in real time, when it's necessary, and burned when the rewards are paid.
Yep, 1 sat creates 1 CC. 1CC in rewards creates 1 sat.
Pardon my ignorance, but what do the horse and pistol icons mean, please?
Why not make Cowboy hats equivalent to ecash. That's rational in my opinion.
What're your thoughts on Liquidity relays, so people can have sats till they can afford to obtain a channel.
Super Scaler is also an option
We need to know who zaps who which isn’t possible on ecash. We also don’t want to run a mint since it’s taking custody.
You mean using ecash as a buffer for inbound liquidity? These ideas sound good.
Liquidity relay is actually a buffer for LN.
It's one of the new things discussed in Tokyo. A user can receive sats without having to open a channel, and there's a special account created for you that receives these sats, which then opens a channel for the user when the channel capacity is sufficient
I gave my SN lightning address to bet on US President election results before this deadline announcement was posted. Feels like a rug pull.
Is your LND via Tor working? Keep getting "(2) failed to create test invoice: No connection established. Last error: undefined"
We are working on better errors to diagnose these problems. Our Tor support is unreliable and I'm sorry.
Forcing users to open clearnet ports is dangerous and is similar to kyc (((
why?
One reason may be that custodial services are under assault lately, so this is a safer solution long-term.
Bingo ringo
You can only legally serve US customers custodially if you KYC them and pay millions of dollars for licenses.
This is outrageous sir
So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
Not necessarily, many wallet connections either require no approval or allow to set a budget within which payments are automatically approved.
Yes, you pay for the route to our node. We pay the network fees for the route to the recipient from the 30% we take for rewards and territory revenue.
For small zaps, it can be a high percentage due to base fees (1 sat fee for 1 sat payments). If you want zero fees, open a channel to SN.
Yes. If your wallet fails too much, we might disable it and you'll receive cowboy credits instead until you fixed your wallet and want to try it again.
You can use Blink for receiving via its lightning address.
If a wallet does not support
sendingreceiving, it's either because we haven't implemented it yet or because they don't support running on the server (like WebLN).I think you mean receiving.
Only if that's what your wallet setup/settings require. Mine doesn't. That's up to you.
That's right. If fees are too high for you, you can always use cowboy credits instead.
If all the recipient's attached wallets fail (you can attach more than one), we will fallback to giving the receiver fee credits unless they indicate they'd prefer to receive nothing if no wallet is available.
Some wallets only support one or the other. For some wallets like Blink, we've only implemented one or the other. We plan on implementing Blink receives soon (@rblb mentioned wanting to work on it this morning).
For non-custodial p2p zaps on SN, we implement an lnproxy like forwarding mechanism. So the only one that would learn your lnd node's identity is SN. That still might not suit your threat model, but it's worth mentioning.
Good summary. Thank you. The only thing that's not clear to me: If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?
And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?
Less urgently, the folks behind Zebedee are straight-up thieves, liars, and con-artists, so I really hope you don't put yourself in a position where they could financially screw you.
We're still working on these final details, but they'd likely come from your attached wallet unless you've indicated you'd like to send Cowboy Credits instead.
They wouldn't choose to. But they might if:
I can cope with a third party taking advantage of SN, but I will not stand for a third party taking advantage of any stacker by proxy. We will only partner with a third party custodian if I'm sure I can defend/save stackers from the third party should I need to.
They can only be withdrawn, not used for anything else. If you want to zap someone, you need to have cowboy credits or a wallet attached.
The SN wallet for sats essentially ceases to exist, the sats in it can only be withdrawn.
My basic feeling on the matter is this is a forced decision that sucks in terms of allowing value for content. The Cowboy Credits are like a shitcoin with no actual value other than a wooden nickle kind in this ecosystem. After all the stuff I've heard from folks about Trump's crypto offering, it is interesting to me that everyone is more receptive to this.
Having said that, I understand the "why" this is being done, but the solution having no Sat related value is not a good long term solution. A better solution might have been to arrange things such that is impossible for stacker news to "KYC" at all. If someone zaps or doesn't zap in such a system, well then, that is of no relevance and is more in keeping with the original vision of Bitcoin.
Serving US customers as a bitcoin custodian - legally - requires KYC and millions of dollars in licenses.
We don't want to KYC you, so we're are going noncustodial.
We've been working on this since late last year. It's been an ongoing discussion here since then.
This will create a lot of confusing among stackers.
I repeat: you should separate "upvotes" from "zaps".
Not to take the unpopular opinion, but stacker news was about using bitcoin and zapping them back and forth.
That is what made is so unique.
Not that cowboy credits will be different, just something we have to get used to.
How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps?
@ek @k00b
Exactly the same. CCs are sats as far as the algorithm is concerned since every CC was once a real sat. CCs become real sats again only through rewards.
Why do they do this? And why that date?
Because we don’t want to break the law.
We are far enough along development wise that date makes sense.
a ok and after that will the system return as usual or not?
This got me thinking, "kyc?" LN Invoice is great.
It's a lawyer's defensive language. We've spent the last 8 months building toward this so that it is both legal and doesn't require KYC.
So will the ln address for my stacker news account directly receive sats to my receive method (and expose my node if connected for receive) similar to how the getalby connection works, or does it first go to stacker news node, then fwd to my receive wallet method ?
On an opt-in basis, we will provide an lnproxy like method to protect your receiving wallet's pubkey at a cost of 10% of the payment amount.
Ok, so if not opted in, directly fwded to receive method. Or, opt into the proxy for additional privacy at a fee. ty!
Is there an attached bitcoin wallet you recommend best for iPhone experience?
You need to attach a lightning wallet, one of those provided in your
wallet > attach wallethttps://stacker.news/settings/walletsLooking for guidance? Read here #723140
This is the way!
I hope most stackers will level up and continue using SN.
Thanks for the updates and keeping SN beyond reproach.
I have an idea to solve this. Replicate the Aqua Wallet model
It's non-custodial, you can still send and receive lightning payments but everything gets settled on a non-custodial liquid bitcoin wallet through submarine swaps.
This model is way more efficient than Muun because submarine fees are basically non-existent in Liquid.
Plus, zapping users to user without using confidential transactions is basically free.
I wonder how the fees would compare. Would there be channel management required by the user?
Not noticeable for zaps ( it can be sent from l-btc address to l-btc address at 0.1 satoshi/vByte )
Also not noticeable for withdrawing or depositing lightning since the submarine swap fees are too small to matter. It just feels like a regular lightning tx fee.
Samson Mow is behind Aqua Wallet and there's no need for channel management because the funds really get settles on bitcoin's sidechain L-BTC.
Liquid is a custodial shitcoin.
Has anyone tested any of these attached Bitcoin wallets on iPhone? I primarily use SN on an “app” (Home Screen shortcut) on my iPhone.
I don’t want to need to use my laptop for lightning.
You could try Coinos.io on just iPhone.
Perfect this is the answer I was looking for, and hey @supratic already has a guide! #694593
If you're interested in bitcoin's pilgrimage of self-hosting a bitcoin and lightning node at home, I'd highly recommend doing that and adding Alby Hub for NWC.
Alternatively, for 10.5k sats/mo Alby will run a non-custodial node with NWC for you.
If you're not in the US and don't want to self-host, Blink provides an open source mobile custodial wallet.
We'll be adding many more wallet options as we go, so even if none of these options make sense right now, hopefully one will at some point.
Personally, on iOS and on my laptop, I use NWC with a Start9 server I run at home.
Wait a minute. What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on November 5th?
You can find them at the bottom of any pint of Cherry Garcia at participating grocery stores.
Does this essentially make the Wild West mode finished as SN is going law abiding citizen?
Possibly still call it modern western mode now 🤠
I don't think so- why cannot you just connect an LN wallet without creating an account, and Zap? LE will have to find the LN wallet identity
You can already zap without an account, just without the convenience of attached wallets. But enabling them for @anon is planned.
Can we have a setting to not use or accept the cowboy credits?
Hustle is probably just being a stickler, but he's not sure about those things.
Will there be a way to connect the unified balance nostr e-cash wallet, or is that uncomfortable legal territory as well?
Yep, we'll allow you to choose for people not to be allowed to zap you if your wallet goes offline or runs out of liquidity or a payment can't reach your wallet due to fees. Your content won't be able to move in ranking as a result but if that's your wish we'll grant it.
@ek plans to implement NIP-60 which is the ecash thing.
Is all of this just weasel words for the lawyers, or will you actually bookkeep and show two separate balances, one for "real sats" and one for "cowboy credits"?
Or how do you prevent one "cowboy credit" being withdrawn as a real sat after the deadline?
They'll each get their own balance.
hmm I didn’t get that: What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
old sats will stay Bitcoin and can be withdrawn as before. Newly arriving sats will be converted to Cowboy Credits unless you connect a wallet for auto withdrawal. Cowboy Credits can be zapped to other users but cannot be withdrawn.
https://imgprxy.stacker.news/7AMDf-0dHSEh0zJXcxSurMsJ7A365uedAOy7Su6Gpfw/rs:fit:1280:720/aHR0cHM6Ly9tLnN0YWNrZXIubmV3cy81NzM4Mg