Unchained Capital - The free ride stops now \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Unchained Capital - The free ride stops now

2818 sats \ 54 comments \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 19 Oct bitcoin_beginners

I’ve been using Unchained Capital for quite a few years and have been very happy with them. They had a modest set up fee for my multisig vault and besides set up I just contacted them to double check my UTXO consolidation. Overall very pleased with them.

We’ve talked before about inheritance planning on SN and for me I’m the most technical in my succession plan as of now (let’s see how my boys are as they get older). While technical I also don’t personally feel comfortable being 100% responsible for my entire stack given the future value I’m assuming so I like having assistance if needed. Yeah yeah I get Bitcoin is for the fully sovereign individual, but it’s also for Everyone who wants freedom money.

Ok ok so now, Unchained is charging $250 a year for support. This is a big increase from $0, but not a % of your stack so depending on how much you have, this is a lower fee than trad fi. I am planning to pay the fee this year as it’s due in a few weeks. Anyone else feel comfortable sharing that they use Unchained? I also see they have a section for a discount code. A long shot, but anyone else know how to get one so that I can preserve some sats?

Other than unchained capital I know there are other multi sig set ups that I may look into. On ramp sounds interesting. Anyone use them?

Lastly to follow up on inheritance, Unchained has some free material:

Hi-level : https://help.unchained.com/unchained-inheritance-materials

Detailed plan: https://8198895.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/8198895/Unchained%20Inheritance%20Protocol.pdf

Thanks!

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350 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 19 Oct

I'm glad you made this post. From what I understand, fees can be set at will and increased each year. That's a deal breaker for me. When I'm long gone who's to say they don't get into financial difficulties, go bankrupt, or turn malevolent and extort customers each year with outrageous fees? What about their third party agents? Can they change? What if they go rogue? Maybe there are answers to my questions. Does anyone know?

64 sats \ 5 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Great question and concerns. I’ve done some research here a you are still covered and it’s a 2 of 3 multisig so you don’t technically need them. Here is their latest update:

This is a follow-up to email notices we sent on January 10th and September 18th, 2024 regarding pricing changes for Unchained personal accounts. Your $250 personal account fee is now due.

To view and pay your invoice, please log into your Unchained account and select the button labeled make your first payment on the home dashboard. This will save your credit card information for future invoices.

Once paid, your card on file will be charged $250 annually moving forward.

Log into Unchained to pay your invoice: https://my.unchained.com/login

What happens if I don’t pay the invoice?

Your bitcoin is safe! Unchained cannot move bitcoin without your participation nor can we prevent you from accessing your bitcoin.

If the invoice is not paid within the initial 30 day window, your vaults and personal account will continue to exist, but you will have limited access to Unchained’s services.To regain full access, you will need to pay retroactive annual account fees.

What you can do without paying:

Withdraw your bitcoin using your keys and a separate wallet software, such as Caravan, Sparrow, or Electrum, by downloading the wallet configuration file. Access your account’s Support and User info pages to verify Support PINs or update account information. Close your account by following these instructions. What you can’t do without paying

Access Unchained’s key if you lose a key and need help recovering bitcoin. Access Unchained’s support team for direct technical assistance with keys or vaults. Access Unchained financial services such as trading and the inheritance recovery workflow. Perform device checks to keep up with hardware wallet maintenance. Paying the invoice will immediately re-establish access to all of Unchained’s services.

Thanks for your continued support, and we are honored to secure, manage, and grow your bitcoin wealth.

If there are any questions about this change, please reply to this email. We'd be happy to assist.

Thank you, The Unchained Team Austin, Texas clientservices @unchained.com

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 19 Oct

Thanks for this information. Perhaps dumb question: what if unchained and partner key agent team up and steal bitcoin because it's 2 of 3 multisig?

43 sats \ 3 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

I have 2 keys, they only have one. By partner are you referring to someone I give it to?

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 19 Oct

No. If you look at the FAQ, they name partner agents. I was under the impression that they also held a key. I just reread the FAQ. I guess the key agents are only used if you request it. So, if fees become outrageous, you can just decide to move your coins? That's good. But now you need to secure two keys, when the purpose of using the service is not to trust yourself with custody?

65 sats \ 1 reply \ @ChrisS 19 Oct

They have other products such as loans where they hold a key, the user holds a keys and a third party holds a key. It’s different than the multisig set up where the user holds 2 of the three keys.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Yeah I haven’t gone there yet! Again great company and great services for those who need/ want it!

82 sats \ 6 replies \ @k00b 19 Oct

Other than unchained capital I know there are other multi sig set ups that I may look into. On ramp sounds interesting. Anyone use them?

There's also nunchuck (who we all forget too often) and casa.

282 sats \ 3 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Thanks I heard on Coin Stories some cool stuff Casa is doing with keys on phones to help with inheritance and colab custody. May have to look at the fees. @siggy47 brings up a great point that fees can continue to go up for these services and likely will, which makes inheritance tricky.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 19 Oct

Yeah we are pretty thoroughly captured when using these services. Fortunately, that makes running one of these businesses desirable which means many companies/products will offer the service and prices can't go stratospheric. Still, it's best to expect them to take advantage of the high switching costs.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 19 Oct

While walking the dog I thought of this scenario: You hide your two keys in a separate geographic location. You lose one to a wrench attack. You won't lose your bitcoin, which is good, but now you are trusting Unchained and that crucial second key. In this scenario you're still better off than a single sig, but it's not trustless.

53 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Ah a walk, proof of work for your health. You can actually replace and get a new key then. Again they can coach you through that process to replace it.

122 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct

Indeed. And Keeper https://bitcoinkeeper.app/ Simple apps.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Ah thanks!

41 sats \ 11 replies \ @OT 19 Oct

I wouldn't personally use something like Unchained. I think it's more for the people that don't have as much interest in Bitcoin as most of us do.

Still, solving the inheritance problem is hard. There's a lot to think about if you are going it alone.

81 sats \ 10 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

I may shift away from multisig in the future as I and my inheritance becomes clearer & easier with Bitcoin custody advancements. I believe we are so early here! On the plus side I joined Bitcoin last cycle. Lost access to 10% of my sat stack on Gemini Earn. Finally got it back luckily and now I’m all in on never staking and I’m securing my own keys. Look out ETF holders!

That also brings up another issue I ran into with Zeus. The app on my phone wouldn’t open for like 2 weeks. So contacted them and I had to force close my lightning channels and re open them. Now the sats are on chain so I think I need to pay to reopen those channels due to issues with Zeus? The channels should have been open for like a year.

Ah the joys of being your own bank! I’m just trying to learn to do it the right way for ME!

By the way, what’s your approach to custody if you don’t mind me asking. Just trying to learn options. Thanks!

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 19 Oct

lightning can be painful at times...

I think either multisig or using a strong passphrase is a good way to self custody the majority of your stack.

Lightning on a mobile is a hot wallet for spending. Phoenix might be a more stable solution, but they charge a bit more than other wallets.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Yeah the lightning wallets I started with were hosted and I learned here those aren’t great. Then my wallets kept getting banned in the US. Like Phoenix which I really liked, which now landed me on Zeus.

10 sats \ 7 replies \ @028559d218 19 Oct

Multisig is probably the way to go.

Generally speaking multi-vendor, geographically distributed multisig is the 'gold standard' of the current industry.

if i were you i would also look at shamir's secret sharing slip-39 as well. no it's not multisig, but it's far more private and probably a much easier recovery for non-tech people.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Hmm cool option. I’ll look into that!

41 sats \ 5 replies \ @028559d218 19 Oct

Shamir Secret Sharing, implemented by Trezor's SLIP-39... Provides 'information-theoretic' security.

By setting a recovery threshold of let's say 2 of 3 or 3 of 5... zero information is derived about the 'secret' or private key unless that threshold is met. If one of the 'keys' is found absolutely nothing is learned about the actual secret. No public key no private key no addresses no balances no nothing.

This is in opposition to multisig where copies of the XPUBS have to be kept. Your 'wallet configuration file' that unchained has you keep is essentially... describing the 'wallet' that you unlock. You can 'unlock' it with only 2 of the 3 keys HOWEVER you MUST have all the 'names of the keys' (the wallet "config" file) plus the 2 keys themselves.

Anyone with the Xpubs ('wallet config file') can see all your addresses and balance. They can't move the funds but they can see what they are - at possibly a huge loss of privacy.

SLIP-39 otoh reveals nothing about balances unless the 'share' threshold is met - meaning that if someone, a family member for example, finds a share they know nothing about the Bitcoin transaction or transactions or balances until they have enough keys to actually move the funds. Either they know everything and have access or they know nothing.

SSS is either you have 0 information. Or you have all of it, with nothing in between. Trezor, who as I understand it implemented the original BIP-39 protocol, is switching to SLIP-39 by default as it's a superior form of storage for most people.

It would make sense that it would be far superior for inheritance as the recovery process is simpler than multisig. The downside (and there are always downsides) is that it is not widely supported yet unlike multisig - and that you are relying on 'one device' to interact with the private key.

One hardware wallet one private key. As opposed to multisig where multiple hardware wallets interact separately with multiple private keys. Tradeoffs but also opportunities (like everything else)

Just my thoughts.

31 sats \ 4 replies \ @79c9095526 19 Oct

Some of the main reasons I like multisig are:

malicious HWW manufacturer
malicious firmware update to a HWW
supply chain attack on HWW (compromised prior to arriving to me)
bad random number generator used by a HWW for seed generation

I don't believe any of these concerns are addressed by using Shamir's. However, you're right, it is all tradeoffs and multisig does require storing more information along with the seeds.

22 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 19 Oct

I 100% agree with you. It is unfortunately all tradeoffs. Let me play the devil's advocate though (for the Op's sake):

If you set up a multisig and it works for years and years but is ultimately too complicated for heirs and family to use after we are all gone... then what was the point? Ya sure it's secure - but if it's too complicated for recovery then what was the point?

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @79c9095526 19 Oct

Yup, absolutely agree.

If your setup is too complicated for you and/or your heirs to use, it is useless. Multisig, IMO, is not actually much more complicated than single sig.

Let's run through a 2 of 3 multisig example where your child has one key, you have one key and your lawyer (or safe deposit box) has one key. You pass away and you have left instructions in your will for your child to open the bitcoin envelope you left them since you've passed. Inside the envelope are:

A set of instructions
A written and metal backup of one set of seed words
A backup (physical piece of paper printed pdf and on a microSD card) of the public keys (this pdf and electronic backup are created by your wallet software like sparrow)

The instructions (#1 above) are fairly straightforward. Essentially your heir must:

Acquire the second envelope from either the lawyer/safe deposit box or from your home
On a (preferably new/clean) laptop download sparrow wallet
Using the microSD card (or the backup physical paper) load the saved wallet
Use the sparrow interface to attempt to send the bitcoin if desired - provide links to good resources/videos on how to spend such as one from BTC Sessions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ_SpQX_YKw)

I am not saying this is 'easy' per say. But I also don't think it is overly challenging, especially considering your children will likely be more technically proficient than you are. Additionally, I believe you could point your heirs in the direction of solid bitcoin companies that provide consulting help and I imagine for a fee they would help the heir with the recovery process once they have the requisite keys in hand. I imagine folks like these could be helpful if they need some handholding:

https://www.ministryofnodes.com.au/category/consulting https://www.thebitcoinway.com/

Probably several bitcoin focused lawyers that you could reach out to as well who could help in the process...

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

These are all really cool facts! Onward!

41 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct

I also don’t personally feel comfortable being 100% responsible for my entire stack given the future value I’m assuming so I like having assistance if needed.

LOL are you this guy?

is so fucking hard to save 12 fucking words? I wrote so many simple guides and people still don't want to learn. At this level I think that Bitcoin is not hard to use, but people are so afraid to learn how to use it. UNBELIEVABLE

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Securing, moving, consolidating UTXO’s, etc is tricky and challenging even with guides. Yes, thanks for putting those together. I like the BTC Session videos too. Doing things the first time is obviously nerve wracking and yes you can start with small amounts, but that leaves a mess on chain or makes you end up paying way more in fees.

@DarthCoin - I believe you’ve stated here in the past that with your inheritance plan your kid(s) won’t get sats they don’t earn and some of your sats will go unused. That’s your choice, but not mine. We are not the same and that’s OK!

20 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct

Just let your kids to read my guides and learn how to use Bitcoin better than you. So you call yourself "BitcoinIsTheFuture" but you don't "feel comfortable" to use it... LOL so much future. This is so funny and sad in the same time.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

They are 5 and 6 years olds, so getting there lol. I have generational wealth secured in a way that I feel comfortable. And it’s way more secure than 2 years ago and in two years from now it will be even more secure. It’s a journey and that’s my future!

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct

nah they are at the perfect age, they will surpass you soon. My daughter at age of 7 got her first BTC selling rubber bracelets online. They are smarter than us...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Ha agreed! Wow congrats, well done Dad!

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 19 Oct

While I really like Unchained as a company, this just seems like unnecessary rent-seeking for a service that requires little upkeep.

Why are they requiring their users to pay rent just for Unchained to hold a string of numbers? Why does that cost $250/year? What actual service are they providing for that much money?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

I totally agree, that’s my struggle! What do you plan to do?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 20 Oct

I think a good self-custody multisig setup is for me. I won't be using any third parties personally but I think the future of third-party custody is going to be joint custody and use the custodian of the third key to act as a coordinator for batching transactions.

If Unchained was doing something like that, it makes sense but afaik, they just hold a key for you.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheBTCManual 20 Oct

Someones gotta pay the bills right?

To me it's interesting to see the price points and how this drives users, for some $21 per month to keep your stash safe and have access to UC is such a tiny marginal cost compared to their stack and the growth of their portfolio, to others its an incentive to DIY or worse go custodial

If you're using the ETF for example and you're paying 0.5% to 2% annually I still think this fee is competitive, if you've got a 50 million sats - 1 BTC holding

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 20 Oct

True, like I said it’s less than trad fi just would be nice to have different support levels . Great point on the ETF fees. It’s like people who pay with credit cards and don’t realize the merchants put the 3% bank fee in them with higher prices

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @c137Heather 19 Oct

I agree, it seems to be a bit much to pay for holding a key. I pay for an IRA with them and feel like that makes sense due to government reporting paperwork, etc. I am likely not going to pay for the personal vault as I never use their services for anything related to that one. If I am unfortunate enough to lose the ability to access one of my keys then I'll have to suck it up and pay, I guess. The decision I am trying to make is if I just want to move it out to a personal multisig (where I would control all 3 keys.)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @nym 19 Oct

Yea way too much to pay for the rest of your life, for most people. I feel like they did some people dirty by offering it free and then started charging and folks had to pay to move to another setup

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Yeah I see both sides of it if you compare to trad fi. Seems like few in the space use their support a ton. Maybe charge those people?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the two of us are in a similar boat then. It’s just a tough balance on the full self custody after I’m gone for inheritance. I think I need to document and explain more of that process to my wife and see how crazy of a look she gives me lol

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @BeeAye 19 Oct

am i reading this right you could just not pay the sub, lose access to the key...then if you want access you pay current your account? how about just only pay it only in event their key is needed?

better yet get comftorable doing it yourself cuz that business model of theirs is ngmi 😔 not certain there is a reasonable alternative, imo

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 20 Oct

I had this same exact thought.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

lol yes you are reading correctly. I could just wait till I need help and have an inheritance plan that states that too, great point.

You do have to pay back so it would just defer payment in my situation.

Not ready yet to do it all myself or to put that on my next of kin

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @OriginalSize 19 Oct

It sounds like they're not providing enough perceived value. It also makes sense that the tone here is miserly as hodlers tend to take their stack and their stack's security for granted.

Effort to protect needs to scale with value. Each cycle provides a reminder to get funds off your phone and into better cold storage setups. Cold storage needs checking and improvement against loss or theft. The fun part is to do all this while keeping a low profile.

I challenge you to raise your game beyond the point where you tell a third party what you got.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Fair points. It’s raising my game and that of my descendants which should in theory be more technically savvy.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @thecommoner 19 Oct

I skimmed the responses so if I missed something similar to the following please someone reply here and I will delete my post...

It strikes me that companies could and should be charging fees differently. (period full stop)

What would that look like you ask.... (glad you did as I have a suggestion that flows nicely with the "discount" I offer my renters at my apartment complexes)

I think companies like unchained could be perceived more fairly and less greedy if instead of charging some up front fee or % based on total account size (as is the status quo in FIAT/CLOWN world) they could instead simply charge some % of the FIAT price appreciation of your funds on an annual basis....and if there is no appreciation they gain nothing...

This seems like it would ensure they are running their business in as cost effective manner as possible and means you as the holder of funds with them are not losing any part of your base stack (I forget what they call this in trad-fi land? - I have had one or two cocktails already and I am too lazy to google that shit)

Anyway - like I said - if it has been proposed great....my guess is it isn't as I am pretty much the only crazy person thinking like this right now and am just dumb enough to open my mouth and spread - if you want to chat about it more I am happy to amuse anyone... this is going to be how succesful companies operate in the future so build a company now using this model and you are welcome....maybe if you remember me, you can zap me... I will be around till I'm not...and then hopefully my offspring will keep my spirit alive long enough into the future to have you zap them or theirs :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 20 Oct

Interesting thoughts. Haven’t looked at it like that.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 19 Oct

I’m looking to roll my own multisig because of this with Sparrow. Anyone got a good guide?

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 20 Oct

It's pretty easy with Sparrow and a SeedSigner but I haven't done with it a ColdCard or a Q yet.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Check out BTC Sessions he has great videos - https://youtu.be/qJ_SpQX_YKw?si=2htjl97NKfaUWZLt

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 20 Oct

Thank you!

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @brandonsbytes 19 Oct

What happens if you don’t pay the fee? What do you lose?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture OP 19 Oct

Just their support and access to the 3rd key, you still have the other two do you don’t truly need it. My wife might though…