The Peculiar Phenomenon of Libertarians Supporting Donald Trump(Reason Magazine) \ stacker news ~Politics_And

pull down to refresh

The Peculiar Phenomenon of Libertarians Supporting Donald Trump(Reason Magazine)reason.com/2024/11/04/the-peculiar-phenomenon-of-libertarians-supporting-donald-trump/

3404 sats \ 34 comments \ @denlillaapan 4 Nov Politics_And_Law

Brian Doherty at Reason has tied himself in a knot here:

One cannot take anything good Trump has ever said seriously (he's a liar and authoritarian twat), but all the bad things he has ever said, joked about, or supported must be 100% incorporated into one's opinion of his. Strange asymmetry.

Also, of course, then we get:

Fear about the wild evils the Other Side will commit if in power are a very strong motive power in American politics today. It's rhetorically effective because you can't win an argument about how some group in power will behave with reason or evidence; such claims can only be judged with common sense and ratified by time.

If so... why are you writing, sir?

view all related items

31 sats \ 16 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Nov

Anybody supporting a politician is a fucking statist. PERIOD.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Nov

statist noun

A statesman; a politician; one skilled in government.
Similar: statesman politician A statistician.
Similar: statistician

adjective

Pertaining to statism.

I am none of the above.

Darthcoin misuses the language derived from the nation state of England.

Is speaking English statist?

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 4 Nov

true dat.

If you're captured by the system, you are captured by the system. #wisdom

52 sats \ 13 replies \ @freetx 4 Nov

I was a vocal libertarian/ancap from about 1999 to 2012. The whole deal, reading Rothbard, Mises, active in Ron Paul campaign, etc..... Then I started to see the real problems with the 'movement'. Its best expressed by this cartoon:

Libertarians, as a group, are sort of permanently paralyzed. Because no candidate meets their qualifications, they perpetually sit on the sidelines....meanwhile millions of pro-socialist voters stream into the country who are not paralyzed. They are extremely active in pushing forward socialist vision. The results are quite predictable.

In the end, the poor libertarian will wind up like the man in the cartoon. Lost in his own detached world of naval gazing, pointing out abstract violations of his idealized worldview, while his brains are splattered on the floor.

This isn't a call for you to run out and love the political process - or even really believe it can work - however at the same time you can't "sit it out" since that winds up being a tacit consent of the ongoing creeping communism.

At the very least, you should vote in local elections, because those elections do matter. Your school board, sheriff, city councilmen, etc have a direct and measurable effect on your liberty.

52 sats \ 3 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 4 Nov

I don't entirely disagree with this.

What trips me up is the intellectual investment -- and, per Christopher Freiman, ability to discern -- how to vote against it.

For this election specifically, I found that somewhat easier but as a general rule -- not really. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2024/10/no_author/who-will-i-vote-for-in-2024/

Also, cypherpunks write code etc; instead of bitching about political leaders, we could just opt out/make our immediate neighborhoods better.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Nov

Also, cypherpunks write code etc; instead of bitching about political leaders, we could just opt out/make our immediate neighborhoods better.

Totally agree. If you can do something productive, like write software, do actual work within the community, etc, that is preferable to voting. That being said, it doesn't preclude voting either. The intellectual investment of voting is a barrier, but at the same time, it's okay to only vote on the issues that you know about and skip the others. Still better than ceding that power to radical communists and others

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Nov

The intellectual investment is exaggerated. There are simple heuristics such as voting against or for what the “enemy” is for or against respectively. For example in California prop 34 was opposed by many radical left wing groups. I voted for it. If my enemy hates then I should support it

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 4 Nov

Also, cypherpunks write code etc; instead of bitching about political leaders

Great point. Satoshi did 100x more for freedom than any politician could do.

Moreover, I sorta doubt that Trump is even going to be able to do anything meaningful due to corruption/deep-state. At the same time, COVID proved the importance of having sensible local govt.

My local Sheriff basically sent out letters saying: Don't ask me to send deputies to enforce mask / vaccine violations...nor ask us to enforce curfews...we will not be able to respond to such calls because we are too busy stopping rapes, murders, and robberies.

52 sats \ 6 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Nov

Pretty much my point of view. I don't get to live in an idealized world, so I have to do what I can to live in the world that we've got.

Some people may be more equipped to opt out, and that's good on them, but others are more tied to the social structures that already exist and are captured by the state

146 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Nov

Idealized or utopian?

Libertarians and anarchists should read a conflict of visions by Thomas Sowell

It’s easy to opt out if you live in a nice safe neighborhood or have the financial means to. Most people are not so lucky 🍀

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @freetx 4 Nov

Those nice safe neighborhoods aren't absolute. Eventually the hoards will reach their doorstep.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Nov

I agree but too many residents take safety for granted.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 5 Nov

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 5 Nov bot

https://xcancel.com/endwokeness/status/1853174391401492759

reply on another page

61 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 4 Nov

Yes, during my time as a non-voter, I will admit that I was smug about it. I mentally enjoyed that I wasn't participating. It was easy. I could criticize the system and all the normies who made it up and exempt myself from any responsibility.

I now see that as a big cop-out. As you say, we are forced to live the real-world. The real world is messy and complex and full of contradictory situations, but its the hand we were dealt and if we want things to improve we must engage.

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 4 Nov

At this level I don't even know what is worst:

a libertarian that became statist
a statist that want continue to be a statist

you are truly a deranged mind

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Nov

Living in the real world and acknowledging that humans are weak alone so form into groups for strength and power and access to resources. Like it or not nation states are tribal grouping which project power and determine allocation of resources- equally important if not more so than free markets in terms of wealth distribution and opportunities available to individuals.

Go and live on an island or in a forest if you wish but you will not find it easy...and you will be vulnerable to attack from others if you have anything of value that they want.

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheMorningStar 4 Nov

Dwindling reason for an authoritarian vs authoritarian viz. Trump vs Harris. The author has tried hard to poster Trump as a criminal but succeeded only in painting a dwarf picture of Kamala. Trump is no authoritarian, nor is Kamala. Both are somewhere between libertarian and authoritarian view. These kind of articles however are fit to fill prejudices in the minds of people.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 4 Nov

Very, couldn't agree more

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 5 Nov

The author is writing for reason without reasoning. I'm biased but so is half the world. Donald Trump is not by any means what the is trying to paint him. Please submit my resentment on his views. What he's trying to do is justify Democratic Party.

1031 sats \ 5 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Nov

I think the author of this piece is pretty disingenuous when he accuses Trump's administration of being the perpetrator of "COVID Tyranny."

The record is very clear that Democrats were the extreme COVID tyrants, willing to embrace all manner of extreme violations of liberty, and willing to distort the scientific evidence and censor debate in order to do so. It was always the Republicans who were speaking out against this. Moreover, Trump had very little to do with any of it because most COVID policies were at the state and local levels.

20 sats \ 4 replies \ @oliverweiss 4 Nov

Trump was lucky that he was replaced by Biden. Otherwise you would have written it differently.

26 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford 4 Nov

Its not as clear cut as these two parties like to make it. Trump was terrible on Covid. During his term most Republicans were bad as well. However, they were not the same as the Democrats. An issue that should not have been political became political became political. Who knows what Trump would have done if he had remained in office. Its hard for me to believe he would have been as insane as Biden though.

The thing is, this is all a trap. Get people arguing about which team did better or worse instead of understanding the policies and logical flaws in both. Both desire to increase their power and their perceived need. Its really a dumpster fire.

68 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Nov

It's pretty clear cut to me. I can't envision a world in which Democrats were less authoritarian on COVID. For one simple reason: Democrats align themselves more with academia while Republicans align themselves more with small business. Small business more than anyone had the incentive to stop the lockdowns, whereas the medical establishment had multiple layers of incentives (including from Fauci's personal entanglements) to perpetuate the Covid myth.

As for Republicans being bad on Covid at first, everyone was pretty much on board with the authoritarianism at first, because we weren't sure what we were dealing with. "Two weeks to stop the spread," is what we were sold and most people were willing to put up with that.

But two weeks turned into years; even as data was coming out that Covid wasn't dangerous except maybe for the elderly. Moreover, the George Floyd protests showed that 1) Covid wasn't that dangerous; 2) lockdowns were being selectively enforced.

I'm not saying Republicans aren't also authoritarians. I just think that on Covid, specifically, it was pretty clear cut to me the differences between the parties. And since Covid brought about the most egregious violations of liberty we've seen since 9/11, it makes sense that libertarian leaning people harbor distrust towards Democrats.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 4 Nov

Yep, well said

53 sats \ 0 replies \ @oliverweiss 4 Nov

"Two weeks to stop the spread," is what we were sold

The narrative pushed forward by Trump himself, then it should be over by Easter when it gets warmer, then definitely by summer, then… he was replaced.

But, of course, I agree with @kepford, we don’t know

what Trump would have done if he had remained in office.

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 4 Nov

Libertarianism is actually a pretty big tent. I 100% get why some will and are supporting Trump. At worst it is defensive. He's worse than the other side is the most simple explanation. I don't vote but I get why some do. I also understand why people calling themselves libertarian would refuse to vote for Trump. Some will vote for the Libertarian party candidate. Some are anarchists. Some are minarchists and are therefore statists. They support a night-watchman state. Ron Paul is in the category.

The fact that so many people get all worked up about anyone possibly finding anything positive about Trump is really interesting to watch. I do not trust him or his team. In the end, to me the much bigger problem is that so many focus on the government as the solution to their person problems. This includes libertarians.

I get it to some extent. The state really went after individuals hard in the US during the pandemic. This is a big reason why so many are behind Trump. They see him as the only option to stop the system or at least slow it. If he wins I hope he does some good. Not hopeful but I've been wrong before.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan OP 4 Nov

Insiders/deep state peeps and other parasites suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Nov

Immigration policy is one issue that individuals have little control over. I guess I could build a wall for my residence

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Nov

Libertarians exist within a paradox of their own making. They dismiss the importance of the nation state in providing an environment where economic prosperity can develop and advance. In doing this they are ignoring the lessons of thousands of years history and basic principles of life that go back much further than human civilisation. Life is a contest for access to and control of resources. Humans are weak and vulnerable as individuals but powerful in groups. This groups of humans unite under various creative narratives which give a sense of unity and work together to gain access to the resources available- these groups compete with adjacent groups and ultimately these groups have come to known as nation states. Libertarians ignore this reality. Without the shelter, protection and resource hegemony of a stable strong nation state free enterprise and prosperity are not easily attainable.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 4 Nov

Doherty writes that illegal immigrants live peacefully and productively

Peacefully? Productively?

Utter nonsense

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 4 Nov

One cannot take anything good Trump has ever said seriously (he's a liar and authoritarian twat), but all the bad things he has ever said, joked about, or supported must be 100% incorporated into one's opinion of his. Strange asymmetry.

Friend. Logic is a black hole for people that are filled with hate.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @7e6e393a56 4 Nov

The reality is that many libertarians support politicians, so one could argue "They're not libertarians"

Yes, but in practice this is what I see most There are several realities around the world. Countries where voting is mandatory. These people end up choosing what will cause them the least harm.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @e36bf8b795 5 Nov freebie

I'm still happy I attached my wallet regardless if it needed to be done now or later. This site has really helped me become a lot more familiar with LN, so it's a win for me either way