How to orangepill newbies about the LN? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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245 sats \ 17 comments \ @sommerfeld 4 Oct 2022 bitcoin freebie

I've been fairly successful at orangepilling about Bitcoin in general with core ideas like:

don't trust verify
21M supply hardcap
true ownership and self sovereignty
an opt out of the perils of the current financial system

Later it comes a time when the question of how bitcoin scales comes up. I know the answer but I has been hard for me to lay it out on other people.

It does not help to just say that it is a magical technology that makes payments instantaneous and feeless. That goes against the "don't trust verify principle" and contrasts with the simplicity of the base layer.

I've also tried explaining how it works but it has been challenging because I need to first explain multisigs and HTL contracts. At that point it just becomes an overwhelming amount of information and the interest fades off.

Any suggestions?

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5 sats \ 4 replies \ @pi 4 Oct 2022

I think it will very much depend on your audience.

I'll personally not mention multisigs or HTLCs to my mum (most people don't care about this tech stuff, tbh), but I'll get her to download muun and demo a payment. Speed of transactions and low tx fees usually get people's attention. How deep you go down the rabbit hole with them will depend on their follow-up questions.

Also, i like using the analogy with mobile money (phone credit used for payment) as “off-chain” transactions, and transactions involving banks, as “on-chain” txs.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @sommerfeld OP 4 Oct 2022

I used that analogy but people answer back with fair questions that are a answerable but are very subtle or technical to try to explain in a quick chat.

Like:

is it still decentralized and trustless? How?
why do we still need the base layer?
is lightning BTC the same as normal BTC?
why do I have to use a custodial wallet in LN? Oh you use a noncustodial LN? Why can't I do that as well? You need to run a node for that? But you don't need to do that in normal Bitcoin ... looks confused

I was opening that someone on SN would have gone through that and have a nice ELI5 explanation of the LN for those scenarios.

26 sats \ 2 replies \ @pi 4 Oct 2022

Fair questions. I personally mostly speak to non tech people or curious nocoiners, so I get different questions.

I've read a very good eli5 explaination of the lightning, but unfortunately for you, the article was in french.

The first three chapters of A. Antanopoulos' Mastering Lightning are excellent and will answer most of these questions.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 4 Oct 2022

Yes, can recommend Mastering Lightning! However, I have a background in computer science so I don't know if people with no such background will find it as easy to understand. But I think A. Antonopoulos does try to assume no previous knowledge.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @pi 4 Oct 2022

I found the first three chapters to be very accessible, but may be in just biased.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2022

I wrote several guides for newbies. Here are some, if you want to use them as inspiration. In this order:

and many more on my substack.

12 sats \ 2 replies \ @thrown 4 Oct 2022

If they are older, they know the concept of a store or bar keeping a “tab” for someone, right?

If you buy stuff at a place all the time, you can just keep a tab open and then pay it all at one time at the end of the month (or whenever). This is like closing out a Lightning channel.

Now where it gets cooler is that Lightning can do this between two friends. Basically keep track of the IOUs between friends for a long time.

I think people struggle with Lightning because right now it is being used for things that don’t often make sense. Like one-time-payments where a channel is opened and closed on the spot. This doesn’t really showcase the coolness of it imo.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @02937abef4 4 Oct 2022 freebie

Yes, but with the additional complexity but also very useful feature that you don't need to open tabs at every bar you go to, the tab at your local bar can be used to route payments to any bar anywhere.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sommerfeld OP 5 Oct 2022

I think this is the feature that is hard for people to wrap their head around.

It's not the transaction batching but the "network" part of the LN that actually makes it useful but also non trivial.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @21m 4 Oct 2022

Get them using it. My friends like to gamble so I got them to try out https://lightning-poker.com/. Offer to fund their wallet with enough sats for a game and show them how easy it is to deposit/withdraw.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @pillar 4 Oct 2022

Go buy something with LN together. If no shops accept it in your area, buy a giftcard for some day-to-day product in bitrefill with LN and go together with them to spend it. Could be something as silly as buying ice cream in Walmart.

Practical use first. Once they feel the magic, there might be a chance to sneak the technicalities in.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sommerfeld OP 4 Oct 2022

I dont think buying a gift card is convincing enough.

Even if a merchant accepts it, most people will not see how it is better than VISA or using a high throughput centralized shitcoin.

What convinces people about base layer Bitcoin is the simplicity, soundness and trustlessness. If people don't see how those properties are kept in the LN, then I don't think people will be convinced.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 4 Oct 2022

At that point it just becomes an overwhelming amount of information and the interest fades off.

They got the idea of hard money but lost interest in bitcoin because they weren't interested in LN?

5 sats \ 3 replies \ @sommerfeld OP 4 Oct 2022

Interest in LN fades off. They still get the point of Bitcoin regardless.

My worry is that they can get the idea that it can be just "digital gold" and will just be used as a reserve asset for countries treasuries in the future and that it won't be "cash for the masses".

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2022

Interest in LN fades off.

LOL you made me laugh. That shows that you have no idea how LN works and what is coming. Even here, without LN you will not be able to post this. SN works with LN. And is just the beginning.

Onchain L1 is the "central banking" LN L2 is the payment network.

Bitcoin without LN is doomed to fail, it just gonna die if is not used as money. LN could not work with a stable, strong, secured L1. So both have to exist and work together. LN is the natural growth of Bitcoin L1.

Read and learn more: https://learning.chaincode.com/ https://github.com/chaincodelabs/lightning-curriculum

25 sats \ 1 reply \ @sommerfeld OP 4 Oct 2022

I'm not talking about me and you don't need to make vague claims about my understanding of LN, I'm well aware of its value and future promise. I run my own node for over a year and have been using it and learning more about it ever since.

I explicitly asked for help in making normies understand that.

You and me use SN, normies don't and likely will not (normies don't even use Hacker News).

Probably people will use LN without even knowing it or how it works bit that is besides the point of my original post.

My question was: how can I convince outsiders of the value LN without going against the don't trust verify principle by just saying it's magic.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2022

Learning about Bitcoin is a long process and necessary to be in steps.. Don't look for shortcuts. Every new user MUST take all the steps in order to be a really good user of Bitcoin. Otherwise is all in vain. Who is lazy and don't want to learn and understand all these steps, will pay later the price of ignorance. This is life and is damn hard.

Is not about getting as much as we can to use Bitcoin, is more about teach them slowly to use correctly the technology and understand it. This is not a game of let's see who is running faster. This is a process of changing mentalities and systems.

Don't try to adapt Bitcoin to existing systems. Change people's mind to be adapted to how Bitcoin works. If they do not change their mind and start learning it, they will be doomed.