I'm Seth For Privacy, freedom maximalist and VP of Cake Wallet

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I'm Seth For Privacy, freedom maximalist and VP of Cake Wallet - AMA!

29.6k sats \ 77 comments \ @sethforprivacy 22 Nov AMA

Hey everyone, thanks so much for jumping in for this AMA! If you want to learn more about what I do, what I love, or where I dedicate my time, here are some links to get you started:

Blog: https://sethforprivacy.com
My privacy and Bitcoin focused podcast, Opt Out: https://optoutpod.com
More about Cake Wallet, a privacy-centric Bitcoin/Monero/etc. wallet: cakewallet.com

Privacy resources

How I would approach the personal privacy journey if I had to start over: https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/privacy-first-steps/
Favorite privacy course, made by a friend, the host of the Watchman Privacy podcast: https://escapethetechnocracy.com/
Favorite privacy YouTuber (also a friend, and coworker now!): https://www.youtube.com/@techlore

Random links

Learn more about Silent Payments for Bitcoin: https://silentpayments.xyz
Self-hosted nodes, resources, and repos I provide, plus how to connect 1:1: https://sethforprivacy.com/about/

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1085 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b 22 Nov

If you could unilaterally soft fork bitcoin, what would you fork in?

131 sats \ 3 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Monero-like privacy that you can easily opt into.

This is 100% possible, and quite scalable today (and I even have a friend contemplating opening a technical BIP on how to achieve it). This would 100% replace the need for Monero etc. and would have massive improvements to upper layers like Lightning as well, which could benefit from the improved on-chain privacy.

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @guts 22 Nov

What about something like Mimblewimble?

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

If I can soft-fork in anything, it would be something far more effective than MW :)

MW is really a scaling tech that has some privacy advantages (primarily due to ephemerality).

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ 23 Nov

please Seth's friend do it 🙏

1010 sats \ 7 replies \ @denlillaapan 22 Nov

Bitcoin wallets, like podcasts, mushroom out of all proportions.

Nuff already: I find that there are too many Bitcoin wallets -- cluttering up my phones and scattering seed phrases everywhere.

Do we really need another? And why is your preferable to what's out there/what you consider to be your closest competitors?

131 sats \ 6 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

While I agree we don't need this many practically, having lots of options that try different approaches is one of the things that makes Bitcoin special.

As for Cake -- the main differentiator is that we put privacy first in everything we do. No telemetry, no tracking, no accounts, etc., while also leading the way in a lot of privacy tech (Monero, Bitcoin Silent Payments, Litecoin MWEB, etc.) with more coming down the pipe (i.e. Payjoin v2 is a WIP and in internal testing).

We embrace the reality of a multi-cryptocurrency world which is also a key differentiator, making it incredibly easy to swap between cryptocurrencies w/o KYC or the traditional deposit/withdrawal at a central exchange. Most people out there are not Bitcoin-only maximalists, and the vast majority use some combination of EVM chains, Bitcoin, and Monero. We want to serve them, while allowing hardcore Bitcoiners to still have a "Bitcoin-only" experience if they so choose.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @denlillaapan 22 Nov

beautiful, man. Thanks!

Yeah, that's a lovely addition in a post-Samourai world.

210 sats \ 3 replies \ @OT 23 Nov

There are other coin joins available. I see a lot of people saying the same thing, but don't get it.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan 23 Nov

Whatcha mean? I haven't found or seen a more convenient coinjoin application?

210 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 23 Nov

Wasabi isn't convenient?

Running jam on a start9/umbrel/raspiblitz gives you an easy interface with join market. Its not difficult.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 23 Nov

Mje, not really. Always seemed to tricky for my stupid self, but I suppose i can try it then

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Of course, thanks for the fantastic question! Love when it's clear you've put a lot of thought into it.

1001 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 22 Nov

Which service would you recommend for swapping between Bitcoin and Monero? Is there maybe even a service that accepts Bitcoin on Lightning? I created a post for this recently but as expected, nobody replied.

145 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

You can actually use Robosats for swapping between LN and Monero! Make an offer if you don't see one :)

Outside of that, I generally recommend Cake Wallet (cakewallet.com) or Trocador (trocador.app) to use good instant exchangers.

There is also growing volume on Haveno (https://haveno-reto.com/) and growing usage of atomic swaps (https://unstoppableswap.net/) for more censorship-resistant and decentralized options.

1000 sats \ 5 replies \ @Fabs 22 Nov

What's your "In a nutshell" of why someone should care about their online privacy?

I, for one, don't really think about the traces I might be leaving out there, although I do care about not accepting cookies- I bet that gives me at least some bonus points in your book, doesn't it? 🥲

311 sats \ 4 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

In a nutshell -- if you want freedom, you have to preserve your privacy. Without doing so you will be at best manipulated and coerced by ad companies and corporations, and at worst surveilled and oppressed by nation states.

Freedom requires privacy, and without it all other fundamental human rights fall apart quickly.

140 sats \ 3 replies \ @Fabs 22 Nov

Hm, I think I get where you're coming from. Do you feel like the general public cares enough about their online privacy? How do Non-Westerners look at their online privacy? Anything you can tell?

I feel like we're extremely spoiled here in the West, whether it be financially - a "safe", "stable" Fiat currency compared to other currencies -, hence the common notion of the broader public that Bitcoin "has no use case", or in terms of privacy, since the average Joe isn't likely to be actively pursued based on what they do online, criminals aside; I bet that this is a real issue and concern of people in countries like Russia, China, North Korea et cetera.

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

The West is hard, there is very little "perceived need" even if the real need is high and rapidly growing. I don't even try to evangelize privacy, instead I focus my efforts on tools and resources that can be useful to those that have a wake up call like I had.

There is, however, a rapidly growing segment of the populace (even in the West!) who are realizing the silent oppression that is growing around them and are waking up. Especially over the past four years I've seen massively increased appetite and demand for privacy.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fabs 22 Nov

Hm, "one can only lead a horse to the lake" or something like that, that's true.

I'm also rocking back-and-forth since a while, contemplating whether or not i'd like / need to go down the privacy-way, but i'm kinda lazy in that regard, there has not been the "Oh shit, this is Wunderbar"-moment I've Had with Bitcoin- yet(?)... 🥲

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Privacy is hard because many of the changes you make don't make your life immediately better, and many often have no felt improvement.

It's more of realizing the need and wanting to preserve your future freedom for those of us in the West than it is some existential crisis.

1000 sats \ 11 replies \ @benwehrman 22 Nov

I would consider myself a bit of an idiot when it comes to privacy in general, but especially in the digital realm. Do you have a sort of "basic loadout for dummies" of apps, software/hardware etc. you recommend for all internet natives/bitcoiners to use, or at least be acquainted with as tools to keep in their arsenal?

191 sats \ 9 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

If I had to dumb it down to just a few options, it would be:

Run the latest Google Pixel phone w/ GrapheneOS
Switch browser to Brave
Use a good VPN that accepts Bitcoin/LN like IVPN or Mullvad

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @guts 22 Nov

LibreWolf is a good recommendation too.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Definitely, but not available on mobile so I usually default to Brave for a cross-platform choice.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @drlh 23 Nov

I don't know how comparable is privacy with librewolf, but I use fennec browser for mobile. It could run firefox extensions too, and being a firefox fork I risk to affirm it's same (for firefox). Even using alby extension with it.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 22 Nov

Yeah for mobile I also use Mull, supports extensions too

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @benwehrman 22 Nov

Awesome - I've actually recently been thinking about what phone I want to get next, so will definitely keep this in mind.

What would you say are the main pros/cons of running GrapheneOS? I imagine there have to be some sacrifices for running a privacy-focused OS

81 sats \ 1 reply \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Very little sacrifice IMO, the experience (if you're willing to enable Google Play Services) is pretty seamless outside of losing Google Pay.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @benwehrman 22 Nov

Awesome! Will move this straight to the top of my list then. Appreciate your input.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jinformatique 22 Nov

About the Brave recommendation, what is your take about these shortcoming? #258621

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Haven't seen those claims before, will have to dig in.

71 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Check out the privacy resources in the OP, I think between those three you can quickly create a gameplan of what you want to approach first, and what tools fit your needs best.

I'm especially fond of this blog post, and people have spoken very highly of it in the past (not to toot my own horn, but rather to give community credence to it).

1000 sats \ 2 replies \ @bren 22 Nov

Thanks for doing this AMA! What do you think of the long-term viability of Monero, and could Bitcoin still use some of that tech in the future?

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

You're welcome!

Long-term, Monero will continue to be an invaluable tool for freedom as long as storing/spending privately is incredibly difficult in cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. There is massive (and growing) demand for easy, achievable privacy, and Monero has fantastic product-market fit there. If Bitcoin were to make privacy drastically easier, I would be happy if there was no need for Monero and we could all just use Bitcoin w/ financial privacy :)

As for Bitcoin using Monero tech -- the funny thing is that much of Monero's tech originally was meant to be used on Bitcoin! Unfortunately the focus for Bitcoin rapidly became storing wealth and being extremely cautious, and so none of it ever got implemented. Still hopeful covenants can help us get a little bit of that back, but ultimately the social consensus would have to shift and start prioritizing privacy for major improvements to happen.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @bren 22 Nov

Great answer, thanks!

101 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 22 Nov

When did you start to care about (your) privacy and why?

1041 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

It was a lot of things happening at the same time that led to my falling down the rabbit hole:

Reading Snowden and Glenn Greenwald's books for the first time
Seeing "behind the curtain" working in cybersecurity and realizing how easy surveillance was on most people
Realizing that I was working at a company abusing cybersecurity tech to detect/surveil/imprison a religious minority in China, and finally coming to terms with the fact that even if I didn't directly work on that project, working for the company was contributing to the demise of people's freedom

These things came together within a few months and served as the catalyst to taking the jump and changing my career and off-work priorities, including starting Opt Out.

I've told the story a few times on other pods, but can't think of where exactly ATM. Will drop a link here if I remember one!

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 22 Nov

What do you think is more important for adoption of privacy tech? UX or education?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

UX 100%.

The best privacy tools require very little to no education to use (see: Signal).

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @odium 22 Nov

What's your take on BasicswapDex? Have you researched/tried it?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @odium 22 Nov

https://basicswapdex.com/

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

I've tried it but it's... very early IMO. The requirement to run the nodes + web UI yourself give it a HUGE barrier of entry.

However, they are fantastic people (got to talk to one of their team extensively at Monerotopia) and atomic swaps are an invaluable fall-back if better UX options like instant exchangers and AMMs get shutdown or de-list Monero.

100 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 22 Nov

Do you think BOLT12 improves receiver privacy on lightning "enough"?

Would it maybe even be enough that we might see DNMs use lightning payments instead of Monero?

If not, do you think DNMs will ever use lightning?

And what about silent payments? Not private enough for DNMs?

1062 sats \ 5 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Yes, it's a fantastic tool that (due to blinded paths) has a massive effect on making LN more private. Not sure I would say it's "enough" as other critical problems remain, i.e. most people using custodians, those not using custodians using wallets that do server-side path finding, and those not using those still using a few central LSPs and thus having most payments not benefit from onion routing.
Not at all, LN's complexity for proper self-custodial usage makes it a non-starter, I don't expect to ever see a large DNM that supports LN, much less exclusively uses it. DNM vendors and customers want one thing -- privacy with little hassle. Monero is FAR superior at providing that and LN can't really ever come close due to it's architectural complexity.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 22 Nov

Thanks, lightning is definitely a lot more complicated than Monero. I didn't consider that for some reason, lol but it makes a lot of sense.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Of course, thanks for the great question :)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 22 Nov

Btw, I've updated my comment with a question about silent payments, not sure if you've seen it before you replied.

But I think the same answer applies: monero is still easier to use privately than bitcoin with silent payments, am I right?

343 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Ah, no, I didn't see that! They're definitely a good fit for DNMs as they can really simplify the address UX and cut down on the need for server infra.

However, they don't work right now with multisig (they require MuSig) so it will be some time before it's technically possible for them to use on multisig-backed platforms.

To clarify though -- Silent Payments are really a UX improvement that merely improves privacy by enforcing the "no address reuse" basic privacy practice on Bitcoin w/o requiring extra server infra.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 22 Nov

Monero is FAR superior at providing that and LN can't really ever come close due to it's architectural complexity.

@remindme in 3 years

280 sats \ 2 replies \ @janetyellen 22 Nov

Monero shitcoiner in da house!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Can't be a shitcoiner if it's not a shitcoin 🫡

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 23 Nov

sure...

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @benwehrman 22 Nov

How does it feel to have Bitcoin inevitably hit 100K during your AMA? How will you commemorate this historic achievement?

91 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Bitcoin hit an ATH while I was on Simply Bitcoin earlier this week, so it seems I have some magic fairy dust for this stuff :D

Let's talk about freedom while number goes up ;)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Wumbo 22 Nov

Do you notice a trend one way or another in regards to if the general public (non technical people) is willing to give up some convenience for security?

I have my white or black pill ready to swallow depending on what you say.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 23 Nov

Definitely a shift to more people understanding that sacrificing some convenience is worth gaining privacy.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 22 Nov

I heard cake is doing lightning soon. Any details about how it will work. It will be self custodial right?

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Going to be done via the Breez SDK :)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @guts 22 Nov

What's should be next for Monero after Full Membership Proofs

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Better multisig
Better sync with improved view keys
Improved BTCPay support
L2 exploration

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 22 Nov

Have you heard of El Tor? What's your opinion on it? Would monetary incentives solve problems with Tor like its slowness?

149 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

I love the idea of integrating payments to incentivize operators, but unfortunately that also incentives Sybil attacks even more -- now they can collect data AND earn fees for doing so! More useful would be something like what Nym is doing where there is a staking system for operators that requires them to put up capital (and expose that capital to slashing or similar penalty mechanisms) in order to earn fees.

The speed problems with Tor are due to the architecture that provides so much privacy, and while they can continue to slowly improve over time, Tor will never be able to match "normal" latency or speed as you're necessarily adding 3+ hops into every connection, and then limiting by (at best) the worst hops bandwidth.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 22 Nov

What's the most common privacy practice that you think isn't effective or a waste of time?

289 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Over-leveraging Tor for regular, mundane tasks.

I see a lot of people think that literally everything they do should be done over Tor, while much of it doesn't benefit at all (i.e. logging into your bank account over Tor) while it adds massive complexity and time costs.

Tor has very specific, very powerful use-cases, but often isn't necessary.

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @k00b 22 Nov

Who is the most effective person at preserving their personal privacy that you've ever met? (That was hard to phrase. I'm sorry.)

319 sats \ 5 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

I guess the most effective I might not even know I met 😅

But to be honest, it's probably either Gabriel Custodiet from the Watchman Privacy Pod or Jack Rhysider from Darknet Diaries.

138 sats \ 4 replies \ @bren 22 Nov

Jack is such a good storyteller!

109 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

100000%, incredibly talented.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 22 Nov

@benwehrman, do you think you can get Jack Rhysider for an AMA on stacker.news? 👀

That would be awesome

1092 sats \ 1 reply \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

Please let me know if I could help, I have some direct comms with him and would love to see this as well :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @benwehrman 27 Nov

That would be excellent! Could you introduce me via cc on email? I can get him set up in our calendar ASAP

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 22 Nov

If you could improve your personal privacy in one way with a flick of a wand, what would you improve?

152 sats \ 0 replies \ @sethforprivacy OP 22 Nov

I think I'd make it easier to use Tor for everything, instead of generally being a PITA 😅

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @kruw 23 Nov

Why do you continue promoting Monero even though Bitcoin was already made untraceable with the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol? https://mempool.space/tx/70aad1d92dd3fc6ddbd802ed20ed155472a5752126a0c3489b56fde6e4cf801c

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 27 Nov

It's definitely better than using Bitcoin by default but you're overstating it's untraceablility

-Largest inputs in a round have less privacy -It doesn't hide amounts or doesn't even have uniform amounts (users potentially vulnerable to amount analysis) -Much smaller anonymity set especially for recievers -Liquidity isn't shared between different coordinators afaik so it fractures anonymity set instead of having one global pool like Monero

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cleaningup12 22 Nov

What is a good privacy strong alternative to 12 words, in the future of self protection of custody?