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OK, this is a really long one...but I think merging the topics can be beneficial, so please bear with me (Also thanks to @Rothbardian_fanatic and @Undisciplined for pushing back against me, prompting me to think through and explain more clearly—I hope?—my perspective).
Rundown:
  1. Meaning of Intrinsic Value in (monetary) economics
  2. Meaning of Subjective value in (Austrian) economics
  3. Why it pertains to music, and why music is a noneconomic good (without economic value).
(1) The intrinsic value conversation is really boring—and Bitcoiners don’t come out ahead.
Contrary to what most Bitcoiners would claim, intrinsic value doesn’t invalidate “subjective value,” the core economic tenant from which all economic analysis ultimately “stems” (see below). And no, this isn’t a shill for Peter Schiff.
All that intrinsic value means in monetary economics is that the object used as money has nonmonetary use cases. Gold, like all commodity money, is like that—which is why it comes up as a critique of bitcoin largely from gold bugs.
Fiat economists don’t really invoke this argument against bitcoin either, since bitcoin obviously share with fiat the property of having no nonmonetary uses. As so often is the case, bitcoin becomes this ideal middle-ground between fiat and gold (#749912).
It’s a description, a categorization—not a moralization or counterargument.
I think this confusion has happened because Bitcoiners overcorrected on the not-backed-by-anything FUD that we get left, right, and center. But, to paraphrase Parker Lewis from Gradually, Then Suddenly (and Eric Yakes' The 7th Property before then): money doesn’t need to be backed by anything, it needs to accomplish (= have credible) monetary properties.
(to make life maximally annoying for us here, in finance "intrinsic value" usually means the true value of a stock, Warren Buffet-style—using some discounted future cash flow formula. I'm too much in the efficient market hypothesis camp to entertain such statements: value exists only in acted-out prices, i.e. market, i.e., market price; anything else is hypothesized cosplay.)
In the 2010s, lots of Austrian economists were thinking about this since there’s a treasured “formula” called the Regression Theorem that Mises (the leading Austrian economist of the 20th century) popularized. It explained, by using time, why an intrinsically useless item like fiat can become money and remain money (go read up on it in case you’re not familiar with it: Wikipedia or the Mises Institute.)
Bitcoin as money challenges this, and the best answer I’ve seen comes from Will Luther, basically saying that the Regression Theorem therefore is practically irrelevant (“calls into question the practical relevance of the regression theorem"). Here’s the article, and here’s a The Daily Economy rundown of the topic.
  • Mises: All current monies need non-monetary uses cases, now or in the past;
  • Fiat can trace its non-monetary use case back to historical instances where it did. Bitcoin doesn’t have non-monetary use cases.
Thus: Either the Regression Theorem is invalidated by bitcoin—since it doesn’t have non-monetary uses—or the Regression Theorem itself, as an explanatory device, becomes watered down to the point of irrelevancy.
The explanation has been to engineer a nonmonetary use case (in the beginning, a plaything and status object among cryptographers; now as a unfakeable, undeletable storage of documents): if being a fun plaything for cryptographers anno 2009 is all a fledgling money needs to pass the Regression Theorem, it’s not a particularly strong/impressive/demanding theorem. Anything passes, more or less.

(2)
Now, what’s up with subjective value?
Apparently I caused a hissy fit yesterday, both among Stackers (#796401) and some Twitterati schmucks, when I said music doesn’t have economic value.
These topics are related since they both rely on a misunderstanding of subjective value.
Subjective value doesn't mean that anything goes or that nobody can ever understand me because of my unique lived experience; me likey, therefore value. No, that's postmodern sociology and an entirely different can of worms. In economics, all we do is we substantiate the Latin phrase De gustibus non est disputandum ("there’s no accounting for taste"). Subjective value is the inferred assumption used to account for why people like/prefer/act in different ways.
“Subjectivity” is colloquially used as a reference to something that is without explanation, seemingly random, and without basis. This is not what the term means, however. It simply means that something is personal rather than necessarily shared and equally understood by everyone.
But Austrian economics claims to be a value-free, objective science, which means that we can objectively say things about the world even though all value ultimately stems from invisible subjective wants and desires.
Market prices, the core of what is an economic world, are objective in that they're inspectable—obviously and really there, as opposes to the arcane forces that make anyone prefer strawberry ice-cream over chocolate ice-cream. The beauty of the market economy—aside from coordinating activities and sending signals about wants and relative scarcities (#780358) —is that it makes objective that which was only provided subjectively.
The importance to economics and understanding our world here is unbelievably crucial. Mises, and to some extent Hayek, learned in the process of battling out the socialist calculation debate in the 1930s what the core value of Austrians' emphasis on market prices were: it came down to rivalrousness. (I wrote about this a freakin' decade ago, in case you want to delve into my fledging Austrianism).
Market prices have informational value because they stem from social, profit-seeking processes of rivalrousness. What I am currently using cannot be used by others, which means—given that there exists others who would like to use the things I'm currently using for some purpose—that we must allocate the scarce resources in some way. If there are more of these things abundantly available than anyone wishes to use, there is no need to resort to the price system for allocation. All is and can be satisfied.
We can say, as a matter of objective economic science, that immaterial(!) goods existing far beyond any possible demands there may be from all of humanity, cease to be economic goods.
Scarcity, like Lionel Robbins argued, is the basic problem that gives rise to economics. There are no market prices in heaven, one’s decisions (i.e., praxeology) become limited to that of how to allocate time only.
(3)
Music and its technological transformation.
If you've followed along so far, the short story is this: Music—literally, practically, objectively, definitively—does not have economic value. The digital content transmitted into my headphones right now is an infinitely replicable, nonrivalrous goods. Ergo, music is no longer in the economic/praxeological sphere—like oxygen, gravity, the Pythagorean theorem, or food recipes.
I pay Spotify, not for "music" or "music services" but for the technical convenience of having all the world's music and more available across devices, and the playlists I've pain-stalkingly gathered over the years. Music ceased being an economic good with digitization (information wants to be free, etc), and streaming services found a technical way to monetize its existence anyway.
Through technological means, music was decoupled from its real-world, scarce-goods origin: Historically, music was a perishable service, performed only locally and fleeting. With 20th-century technology and ability to record a performance, humans made this service a good; music was still scarce, wrapped up and inseparable from the material disc or LP or machine that had “recorded” (hence “a record”) the music.
But the move from economic to non-economic good happened because of further economic improvements again. Now our music is entirely digital, its digital files not even on my devices as their content are streamed into my ears on demand.
Here’s from my Mises Institute piece earlier this year:
Computer files such as recorded music became nonrivalrous and—a few business behemoths and their lobbying efforts aside—infinitely copiable and nonexcludable. Files, therefore, aren’t property since they aren’t scarce. The physical and economic (but not legal!) inability of creators, or makers of recipes, inventions, music, or other things made nonscarce by technology to exclude users is the very principle that makes intellectual property nonproperty. (Joakim Book, "Private Property Comes from Scarcity, Not Law")
Ideas are not subject to economic decision-making; recipes are not scarce; the Pythagorean theorem does not require user fees to its copyright holder.
Appeal to authority (in case you think I'm a schmuck and not worth listening to): Knut Svanholm explains this in Bitcoin: Everything Divided by 21 Million too:
“Audio files were suddenly sharable among internet users because they had become small. A domino had fallen over that would soon make the entire record industry obsolete. And not only the record industry but the whole entertainment industry. Any computer file could now be shared with anyone on Earth over the internet for free.”
In this year’s The Inverse of Clown World (#670200 and #760879), he puts it even more bluntly: “Intellectual property laws literally retard the entire market.”
Me again:
One person’s use of nonexcludable, nonrivalrous intangibles doesn’t prevent another person from using them. You don’t deserve financial compensation for your hard labor of breathing, nor being a nice person to others. You deserve economic compensation when you used scarce resources to generate value for others.
Bitcoin exists because it's the reinvention of digital scarcity, lost about twenty-something years ago when music also ceased being an economic good.
(4) IN SUMMARY,
Consider the wonderful picture I snapped on my walk today. I treasure it and value it; I sent it to friends and family to show them what it's like where I am, and spread some of the wonderful winter joy. I even threw it up on Nostr and received some zaps for it:
What I can't do—economically—is to make a profit selling this image. It's infinitely replicable, and even the concept of "owning" a JPEG makes no technological sense (insert any NFT convos you've had). Besides, even if I were to acquire rent-seeked value out of these pictures, those rents would quickly be competed away… by the other seventeen people standing around me, also snapping indistinguishable pictures of the same objects.
Images, like music, doesn't have economic value precisely because they are not scarce. They exist in infinitely replicable states, meaning that their (marginal) cost of production becomes zero and, in equilibrium, their market price is too.
Rivalroussness matters.
"Value" is horribly misunderstood.
That's today's massively oversized MONEY CLASS. Peace, /J
Definition of Intresic:
Inward; internal; hence, true; genuine; real; essential; inherent; not merely apparent or accidental; -- opposed to extrinsic
I mean that's the opposite of subjective. And as human experience teaches us most things including gold and bitcoin are valued subject to each individual's opinion.
This simple observation is why I find the Austrian's position more logical.
Intrensic value seems very limited and I don't think gold has it. Life might. Oxygen. Water... I could argue against those as well though.
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Honestly, I think the whole intrisic value argument is a waste of time. It feels like a tool to make people shut off their brain.
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I have to agree with you. It does shut people off from thinking about subjective values.
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"Intrinsic value" is basically an oxymoron and should be replaced with "alternate uses".
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Yes, substitute goods. Or the next most desired objective or good.
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That's good
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I don’t think anybody is selling bads. They have to be forced off on you. I can think of a few, right offhand that were and still are current. JABS
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No, bads generally cost money to dispose of.
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That was the point I was trying to make with @denlillaapan in another thread. Goods that are in plenty instead of scarcity would also involve costs to get rid of.
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No, not everything passes in the Regression theorem. It has to be the most commonly used commodity to gain function as money, before that it was just another commodity, although popular. Bitcoin passes into money by the fact that you are using current money (fiat) to give value to the new money. Thus, from gold to FRN. from FRN to bitcoin. You can also buy bitcoin with gold.
It’s not a particularly strong/impressive/demanding theorem.
It is the only theorem to be able to progress from commodity to currency on a real continuum, thus explaining money. I would say not very weak, at all.
In this case, music might be a non-scarce good, but the getting and storing and everything else connected to the delivery of music are scarce goods, there for can be priced in the market. And those scarce goods for the delivery of the music are rivalrous in the extreme.
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Don't follow you re: regression. What you say seems to be incorrect.
For distribution and storage etc of music, I agree with you -- but that would only support my point that the music itself has passed away from economic good and we're trading these other things (playlists, convenience, storage, distribution etc)
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Don't follow you re: regression. What you say seems to be incorrect.
How so? The regression theorem is about tracing back to the origin of money. Thus fiat from gold backed currency from gold from gold as the most desired commodity form one of many commodities. Therefore, commodities are the basis of the value of fiat and when you purchase FTC with fiat it inherits the value given to fiat at that time.
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Big shout out to @DarthCoin
Each bitcoin gives the holder the ability to embed a large number of short messages during the transaction in a time-stamped, globally distributed permanent data store, namely the bitcoin blockchain. There is no other similar data warehouse that is so widely distributed. There is a trade-off between the exact number of messages and how quickly they can be embedded. But from December 2013, it is fair to say that a bitcoin allows you to embed about 1,000 such messages, each within 10 minutes after shipment, since a rate of 0.001 BTC is sufficient to confirm transactions quickly . This message embedding certainly has intrinsic value because it can be used to prove ownership of a document at a given time, to the include a one-way hash of the document in a transaction. Considering that electronic notarization services charge something like $ 10 per document, this would give an intrinsic value of around $ 10,000 per bitcoin.
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Yes, the intrinsic value of just that service. However, I think there is more to the bitcoin service and blockchain than just as a message services. It is also a permanent receipt for any transaction from one to another account. So, at least FINCEN sees a value in knowing who is transacting with whom. Isn’t that the way they caught the Silk Road people? I am just a noob, so I would like to ask @DarthCoin if he knows other intrinsic values for bitcoin. How about it @DarthCoin?
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Isn’t that the way they caught the Silk Road people?
No. SR was a gov hidden operation from the beginning. Ross was co opted as patsy. Typical shit operation tactics to denigrate Bitcoin and trying to destroy it. Sorry for Ross but they used him. As you may know (if not, then watch all the videos about SR I posted here) SR servers were watched all the time and they know all the time the location of Ross. They literally prepared a trap for him, to be in the right location at the right moment so the catch will be a real big news. They wanted to make an example of it to scare the shit clueless normies.
other intrinsic values for bitcoin.
Good question. As answer I would mention this very good article by Jeffrey Tucker, from 2014: https://fee.org/articles/what-gave-bitcoin-its-value/
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I didn’t know that it was an op from the get-go. I knew that he was the patsy, though. I think if people pondered it a bit, they would have known it was a trap or op by the state.
I read that article before, can’t remember when, but I follow Tucker and read everything I see by him.
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Bob Murphy has a great explanation of why people are misapplying the Regression Theorem when it comes to bitcoin.
That explanation comes to the same conclusion that you did: The Regression Theorem is pretty toothless.
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Do you have a reference to Murphy's conclusion that the Regression Theorem of Money is toothless? BTW, Murphy's Ph.D. thesis was about the time value of money.
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I don't remember which episode of his podcast went into it, but I found this excerpt from something he wrote about it.
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People right now are exchanging bitcoins against “real” goods and services, and the sellers intend to use at least some of the acquired bitcoins to obtain other “real” goods and services down the road. There is no question that Bitcoin is currently a medium of exchange, though I would not christen it a money yet.
I would have to agree with this assessment as of 2018, however, bitcoin is approaching the point where it could become money. There is some speculation as to it happening in 2025, after the FRN crashes.
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What’s lacking currently?
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Widespread acceptance of BTC for goods. It is spreading but not quite widely enough to be calling it money, yet. Perhaps, soon, only a few months!
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That’s fair. It’s still emerging.
I do think it’s worth noting that there are people and places using bitcoin as money, though.
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Yep, is agree, in fact, I think whole nations are using it right now, aren’t they? Soon, THE WHOLE WORLD!!!
I agree with almost everything except your conclusion.
You like to write about the difference between "real" and "nominal". Value is real. Prices are nominal.
The way you're talking about value, would imply that it doesn't even exist in the real world of goods and services being exchanged, just because those exchanges are occurring without monetary intermediates.
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Value exists in the real world. All values are set by the persons making the transactional exchanges. They are real, but subjective to each individual. Prices are arrived at by dickering to an agreement, thus variable.
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Spell this out for me? How would my arguments imply that real exchange of goods and services lack value?
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Without a monetary price to observe the way you’re thinking about value loses any meaning.
Take your argument into the evenly rotating economy and try to explain what “economic value” means.
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Well, couldn’t you arrange a barter for articles both parties to the transaction desire? One person wants potatoes and the other wants meat, so they trade some potatoes for some meat. This is direct exchange, not necessitating the need for a medium of exchange, so there really is no monetary price to the deal.
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The Evenly Rotating Economy is a little different from conventional barter, because it isn’t bilateral transactions.
Mises noticed that in what most economists refer to as “equilibrium” there would be no need to exchange money. Our stable routines of producing and consuming could continue on, as long as nothing changes.
Obviously, that’s not realistic, but the point was to show real economic activity is the flow of goods and services, not the flow of money.
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Yes, the Evenly Rotating Economy is encompassing the whole of the economy, but it is a static economy, as in nothing can change, When you introduce changes, especially in the desires of the consumers, static will not work. It points to the fact that money is only the medium of exchange in this case.
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Of course, but I brought it up because there are no money prices in that hypothetical, but things clearly have economic value there.
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I understand that. I think he is missing something somewhere and I just cannot put my finger on it. I tried explaining value a couple of different ways to no avail. Maybe you will be luckier than I was. I didn’t think the subjective theory of value was such a convoluted concept.
I don’t think that was what he was saying. Perhaps he was saying that price, in terms of money, is the nominal portion of the exchange. You are exchanging value for value in a barter situation, so if money is used as a medium of exchange then it has some sort of value. In fact it has the value, to the person giving the money, less than that of the good being received. To the giver of the good, the money has a greater value than that of the good being given up.
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I believe the real and nearly unique intrinsic value of Bitcoin lies in its independence from political corruption.
Great class. Thanks
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