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Why isn't one confirmation enough for a bitcoin transaction?
1308 sats \ 42 comments \ @0xbitcoiner 18 Dec 2024 bitcoin_beginners
I've been wondering about this. It's a given that once a transaction is on the timechain, it can't be undone, but is it really that straightforward? Why do some operators tell us to wait for more confirmations?
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5 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
You can find more information here: 👀 #814227
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34 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 18 Dec 2024
lol, sorry for orphaning this post
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121 sats \ 3 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
😂 There's no need to apologize. I'm just compiling the information so that other people can read it all. Thank you for getting involved and helping to understand this situation.
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111 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 18 Dec 2024
instead of reviewing reward changes I rather argued with @DarthCoin lol
I'm just compiling the information so that other people can read it all
👀
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
just get rid of all rewards #796213
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
Yes these kind of questions are really good !
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269 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 18 Dec 2024
Re-read page 6-8 of the white paper. Satoshi explains his reasoning and calculations.
In his examples, he estimated that IF the largest miner has 10% of hashrate, people should require 5-confs to reduce the probability that their transaction gets reorged to less than to 0.1%
A reorg happens when a miner is able to "undo" a block and replace it with multiple blocks which don't include your txn.
Foundry Pool regularly mines 6 blocks in a row. Foundry has approx 30% of hashrate today.
If Foundry wanted to be malicious, they clearly have enough hashrate to routinely reorg the chain.
So if we account for REALITY, satoshi would recommend requiring 24 block confirmations to reduce the probability of reorg to 0.1%.
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163 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullcount 18 Dec 2024
Here's a list of orphaned blocks: https://bitcoinchain.com/block_explorer/orphaned
If you think mining pools are too centralized, you should require more confirmations for your txns, when possible.
If you operate a LN node, you can set the min required blocks before a channel becomes active, for example.
If you operate an economic node (like a bank or business) you can require more confs before delivering the merchandise or crediting the customer's account.
Unfortunately, you cannot easily require more confirmations as a user requesting withdrawals from an exchange. Maybe your widthdrawl is included in a block that immediately gets reorged or orphaned. Your widthdrawl tx is no longer included in any block nor the mempools at this point. Your only recourse is to plea to the exchange and hope that they recognize the validity of the reorg and re-issue the widthdrawl tx in your favor.
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33 sats \ 4 replies \ @denlillaapan 18 Dec 2024
Block split; blocks can be orphaned. You should really think of a 1-confirmation block as provisional only.
These blocks are created when two miners solve a block at nearly the same time. The Bitcoin network, which operates on a consensus mechanism, will only accept one of these blocks, leading to the other being ‘orphaned.’ This phenomenon is a direct result of the decentralized and competitive nature of Bitcoin mining, where multiple miners across the globe attempt to add new blocks to the blockchain simultaneously.
https://d-central.tech/orphan-blocks-the-overlooked-pieces-of-bitcoins-blockchain-puzzle/
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @jgbtc 18 Dec 2024
It would be interesting to know how often this happens.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
👀 #814589
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 18 Dec 2024
not that often but not unheard of either. Google for exact figures
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
This makes perfect sense. Don't you know of any other situations in which the timechain could split?
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131 sats \ 23 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
In fact it is. But is much easier and cost less to do a RBF (revert) on it than 6 confirmations. After 6 confirmations is almost impossible to revert it.
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0 sats \ 22 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
In fact it is. But is much easier and cost less to do a RBF (revert) on it than 6 confirmations.
I'm a bit lost. Isn't RBF just for transactions waiting to be confirmed (mempool)? It doesn't work after the transaction is in a block, right?
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33 sats \ 21 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
If the RBF have a higher fee and a miner willing to take, it will replace the previous one.
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120 sats \ 20 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
I'm not 'concerned' about the mempool stage, but rather the post-confirmation period (1 confirmation). Just to be clear, 2 confirmations indicate the existence of one block subsequent to the block containing the transaction.
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0 sats \ 19 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/replace-by-fee/
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120 sats \ 16 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
It's not about unconfirmed transactions. RBF is only for unconfirmed transactions waiting in the mempool.
view all 16 replies
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 18 Dec 2024
from your link:
Replace-By-Fee (RBF) is a node policy that allows an unconfirmed transaction in a mempool to be replaced with a different transaction that spends at least one of the same inputs and which pays a higher transaction fee.
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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @flat24 18 Dec 2024
Thank you very much, this question led me to another @DarthCoin class on Bitcoin.
Excellent learning resources in these discussions.
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 18 Dec 2024
Not really a class, I just pointed to the right direction where people should look into. @0xbitcoiner intentions with these questions are really good (he asked in the past other good questions) bringing serious and interesting discussion about using Bitcoin.
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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 18 Dec 2024
Most of the time it is.
But every so often there is a contentious block between mining pools if a block is found at about the same time. The following block found usually determines the previous one. In this situation you could have 1 conf of your TX revert back to zero if the block winner didn't include it into their blocks.
This is why its a good idea to wait up to 6 confirmations.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner OP 18 Dec 2024
@denlillaapan has already pointed this out.
👀 #814155
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 18 Dec 2024
It's enough for me!
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