What am I missing about Ross Ulbricht and the silk road? \ stacker news ~Politics_And

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What am I missing about Ross Ulbricht and the silk road?

1087 sats \ 37 comments \ @NovaRift 4h Politics_And_Law

TL;DR

I noticed the internet is very divided after Trump pardoned Ross. Many sympathizers and his supporters are rejoicing, while others are strongly against it. To be honest, wasn’t he a criminal? He ran the most infamous and dangerous website on the dark web, Silk Road, where dangerous drugs, fake IDs, and hacked premium accounts were sold openly. It even caused some deaths.

For me, it’s fine that he was released as he already served time in prison, but I wouldn’t celebrate like others are doing. Because of what he did, I wouldn’t see him as similar to Julian Assange or Edward Snowden, though many are making that comparison.

The first time I read about him was in Time magazine. At the time, I wasn’t particularly interested in him, but I became fascinated by the dark web. Since joining mainstream social media, I’ve heard about him from time to time. Now that I see the Stacker News community supporting his release, I want to understand why. Is it because Silk Road was the first marketplace to accept Bitcoin as its sole payment method? What am I missing?

Silk Road, the first dark web market of the internet era, was a notorious cyber black market for illicit goods. Launched in 2011 and shut down by the FBI in 2013, Silk Road paved the way for today’s underground world of dark web marketplaces.

Here’s an article from The Guardian (2013) that shows the major impact of his website:

Bitcoin prices fall after Ross Ulbricht's arrest

The price of Bitcoin, the anonymous peer-to-peer digital currency, plummeted after the alleged founder of the online drugs marketplace Silk Road was arrested in San Francisco.

On Wednesday afternoon, the price of one Bitcoin (BTC) was $145.70 on Mt. Gox, one of the largest exchanges for the currency. After news of Ross Ulbricht’s arrest and the seizure of the Silk Road site, the exchange rate plummeted to $109.76, before recovering to $124.00 late on Thursday.

Another interesting point is how open and unafraid he was about his actions. Here’s an article from The Guardian on the five mistakes he made that led to his arrest: Five stupid things Dread Pirate Roberts did to get arrested

Everyone thought the shady figure behind the Silk Road website was a criminal mastermind. The reality tells a different story.

He boasted about running his international multimillion-dollar drug marketplace on his LinkedIn profile.
He used a real photograph of himself for a fake ID to rent servers for his site.
He asked for advice on coding the secret website using his real name.
He sought courier contacts on Google+, where his real name, face, and YouTube profile were visible.
He allegedly paid $80,000 to kill a former employee—but it turned out to be an undercover cop.

Here’s a more recent article from BBC

Ulbricht was found guilty of charges including conspiracy to commit drug trafficking, money laundering, and computer hacking.

During his trial, prosecutors said Ulbricht's website, hosted on the hidden "dark web," sold more than $200m (£131m) worth of drugs anonymously.

Prosecutors also claimed that he solicited six murders-for-hire, including one against a former Silk Road employee. However, they admitted there was no evidence that any killings were actually carried out.

Ulbricht was arrested in a San Francisco public library in 2013 during an elaborate sting operation while allegedly chatting online with someone he thought was a colleague—but who was actually an undercover federal agent.

"I wanted to empower people to make choices in their lives and have privacy and anonymity," Ulbricht said at his sentencing in May 2015. (What kind of empowerment is this?)

Few more articles

Read the Transcript of Silk Road's Boss Ordering 5 Assassinations Ross William Ulbricht's Laptop Trump pardons Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht for online drug scheme

So, what am I missing about him? Is there something more to this story? I’m open to hearing your thoughts. I didn’t make this post as a protest—I just want to understand why his actions are being justified. There’s so much more I’ve read about him, but adding all of it would make this post far too long. I think this is enough to make sense of what I’m asking for.

That’s all. Thanks!

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204 sats \ 12 replies \ @elvismercury 3h

I don't have a problem with any of the activities apart from paying for a hit on someone. It's hard to know whether that's real without spending more time digging into this than I want to.

What's interesting to me is that "Ross is innocent" is a point of dogma in the btc community that you're not allowed to challenge and still be in "polite" company; and most people who hold the dogma know as little about it as I do.

Every culture has its unquestionable truths, I guess.

1559 sats \ 2 replies \ @Arceris 47m

I don't have a problem with any of the activities apart from paying for a hit on someone. It's hard to know whether that's real without spending more time digging into this than I want to.

I know you don't want to spend time digging, but this is what I have learned in digging:

Ross was charged, but never tried or convicted of the contract murder charge.
The charge was dismissed with prejudice.
The primary source of evidence against Ross on the contract killing charge were the two federal agents who later were discovered to have stolen millions in bitcoin from Silk Road. Those agents were tried and convicted of this theft and are serving time.
The Silk Road member who was allegedly targeted by Ross does not believe it happened, or that if it did, Ross didn't do it.

For me, point #3 is sufficiently compelling to doubt it was real.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 15m

This recent SN item is good context for some of this discussion.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 31m

This is really great context, and consequential for how I think about the issue. Thanks for sharing.

81 sats \ 3 replies \ @NovaRift OP 3h

This actually makes a lot of sense, thanks. Do you think this dogma comes from his early association with Bitcoin, or is it more about making him a symbol of resistance against government overreach?

108 sats \ 1 reply \ @Artilektt 2h

"Association" is an understatement. Silk Road was the first time bitcoin was shown to have any kind of real world use-case instead of just being a quirky collectibe for a bunch of nerds. It was a foundational boot-strapping event.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 2h

Good point.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 3h

Both, is my guess. It's hard to have someone who embodies a bunch of things you like, especially when that's rare, and then does something despicable. Easier to deny the despicable thing. Overwhelming evidence on that account.

Again, I don't know what's true. But I know that it doesn't matter what's true for how people are behaving, that's the interesting (and disturbing) thing.

102 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 2h

It's hard to know whether that's real without spending more time digging into this than I want to.

Since this was never even raised during the trial, I don't see why we should be trying to figure out if it was real or not.

30 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 2h

That's not an unreasonable thing to say, but it's also not decisive. My understanding is that things that are harder to prove are often not raised in trial, when a case that is sufficiently strong on other accounts can be made.

I'm willing to be corrected on this by someone who knows better, though.

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 2h

I think you're right, but our legal system (at least the 8th grade civics version of it) is predicated on presumptions of innocence.

If all he was convicted of are things we don't think are wrong and there isn't overwhelming evidence of anything else, I don't see the need to sort it all out.

What you might say, that is perfectly reasonable, is that he created a site where that easily could have happened. You'll have to consult your conscience about that one, I suppose.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 29m

If all he was convicted of are things we don't think are wrong and there isn't overwhelming evidence of anything else, I don't see the need to sort it all out.

Fair.

What you might say, that is perfectly reasonable, is that he created a site where that easily could have happened. You'll have to consult your conscience about that one, I suppose.

That would be an interesting discussion that would probe some of the boundaries of libertarian thought.

75 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 2h

Ross was just one of many DPR accounts. Silk Road was a gov operation from the beginning and they used Ross as a patsy. If he knew it or not... we will see if he will ever reveal that detail (I am sure they put him to sign an NDA).

There's an interview with Curtis Green about his role in Silk Road (see all the videos about Silk Road I've posted on Lightning Video here: https://lightning.video/darthcoin And he also said this:

152 sats \ 10 replies \ @Cje95 3h

He didn't create the most dangerous he just created the one that sticks in peoples minds. There were plenty of dark web sites before him and plenty more after what he did was create one that became the most popular. When you factor in the name of the site and his name as well it was eye catching and something that the media could run with. His website design was also the best that had up until that point existed.

While people might have died of overdoses we don't throw drug dealers in jail for life plus 40 years for bad pills or for people who abused them causing their death. The murder-for-hire stuff is still super popular on the dark web but even US law enforcement say it is just used as a scam. People just take the money they are sent and disappear.

Did he allow for some laws to be broken on the site? Sure but the punishment was absolutely unjust. The US came in and tried to make an example of him but then never enforced laws like they did to him again.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 2h

Also, the application of this legal standard is completely inconsistent.

How many drug deals or other criminal activities are orchestrated over commercial phone services or through ISPs?

In general, we don't hold the creators of products or services liable for criminal activity done with said products/services.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @NovaRift OP 3h

Interesting points, but don’t you think making a website that allowed so many illegal things to happen makes the creator partly responsible for what happened? If his punishment was unfair, what would be a fair way to deal with cases like this, where someone didn’t directly do the crime but made it possible?

269 sats \ 7 replies \ @freetx 3h

Had you ever visited the site?

It was very clear what was allowed and what wasnt. For instance, no pedo, rape, killing, snuff, etc...in fact no violence of any kind. There was a banner announcing that on site.

The site was really just like ebay/amazon for drugs, fake ids, cracked video games, etc.

There is a very high probability that your imagination of it is 10x worse then what it really was...

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @NovaRift OP 3h

Nope, I was in second grade when Ross was arrested. Maybe you're right that I'm biased and have a bad image of the website because of what I'm reading now.

218 sats \ 5 replies \ @freetx 3h

Ross was a fairly principled libertarian, and libertarians generally distinguish between 2 types of laws: "Real Property" and "Statutory"

Real Property laws are things like: theft, rape, murder, arson, etc. All libertarians view these as crimes.

Statutory laws are things that some person wrote on a piece of paper that and says its illegal. Things like: You can't sell this plant, You can't gamble your money, You cant duplicate this document, etc. Most libertarians view Statutory laws as invalid as 95% of them have no victim attached....2 people freely consented to the deal.

Ross ran SilkRoad in accordance with those views. There were no "real property" crimes, only statutory.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @charonnakamoto 2h

What about the non-aggression principle which is a foundational tenet of libertarianism? How did he uphold that when he allegedly try to hire hitmen for multiple ‘clean’ kills?

75 sats \ 1 reply \ @freetx 2h

Was he charged with that? Or was that an FBI fabrication?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Artilektt 2h

To be completely clear, he was charged but the charges were dropped with prejudice.

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @charonnakamoto 2h

I have no issue about creating a marketplace and consenting adults participating in it. But violence crosses a line that I’m not okay with.

75 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 2h

Then you should be fine with him being freed!

He was never charged with any "solicitation for murder"

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66 sats \ 10 replies \ @ChrisS 4h

http://nitter.poast.org/bensig/status/1881921041041072478#m

Here is a good tweet explaining why many early bitcoiners feel differently than you do in your post. I don't know enough details to have much of an opinion only that I would put more trust into what early bitcoiners believe to be the facts and nuances of the situation are than what the BBC or wired or Reuters say the facts are.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @NovaRift OP 3h

It seem a bit one sided. Even if Silk Road was safer than the streets, wasn’t it still enabling illegal activities on a massive scale? If Ross wasn’t directly selling drugs, wasn’t he still responsible for creating and running the platform that allowed it?

75 sats \ 5 replies \ @ChrisS 3h

wasn’t it still enabling illegal activities on a massive scale

I’ll wait for @DarthCoin to post his meme about illegal not being an argument against something.

If Ross wasn’t directly selling drugs, wasn’t he still responsible for creating and running the platform that allowed it?

This is a slippery slope.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 3h

This is a slippery slope.

exactly that. Selling stuff on internet, is just selling stuff. Is not a crime. And I will add another meme here:

In other words Silk Road did nothing wrong. But I stand my ground: Silk Road was a gov operation from the beginning and Ross was used as patsy

I was in Bitcoin during Silk Road and I watch it closely...

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @NovaRift OP 2h

I know you challenge a lot of conventional thoughts, and I agree that selling stuff online is just selling stuff. But when it comes to selling drugs, IDs, and hacked accounts, that’s more than just selling! it causes real Damage. Do you still support websites on the dark web that sell drugs?

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 2h

Define "support". Am I against them? NO, why should I be against free market? Am I using them? No, I don't need such things. People must have freedom to trade anything they want. Trades are not a crime. Is just demand and offer. Nobody is forcing you to use those items. But instead the state is forcing you to use a lot of things, you don't like. So who is doing more crimes? Those that are forcing you or those that are just offering you a free trade?

it causes real Damage

free trade it doesn't cause any damage. Is just an offer, you are not forced to accept.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @NovaRift OP 2h

Very interesting. I think I don't have that level of understanding on free markets, so I'll back off from this for now. I've bookmarked your comment though. If I think I could respond with some logic and sense, I'll answer this.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 2h

you better start reading this article I wrote and go deep down the rabbit hole. You are young and you must know these things if you want to live in a real free world.... https://darth-coin.github.io/general/natural-law-bitcoin-en.html

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fishious 1h

I highly recommend you listen to this podcast episode about Anom (https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/146/). Anom was an encrypted phone with a backdoored e2ee messager app that was created and maintained by the FBI and sold specifically to criminals. These phones and messaging app were used to facilitate drug business operations and coordinate murders. I think it will challenge your views about these matters.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Artilektt 2h

Who gives a shit whether something is just "illegal" or not. All kinds of ridiculous things have been legal or illegal over time. The question is one of morality and principles, not legality.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 4h bot

https://xcancel.com/bensig/status/1881921041041072478

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 20m

He freed the market. He's a hero. The people who put him in a cage are the perpetrators.

Any non-coercive actually is morally superior to any coercive action.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @LowK3y19 2h

I agree it’s a win for Ross but he still did something bad. I feel the whole thing is a political ploy to just make trump look like a man of his word to the people. Does it mean trump is actually be a president who sticks by his word? Only time will tell