267 sats \ 0 replies \ @timechain 28 Oct 2022
I think more communities like Plebnet need to be formed. Also, can we work on i2p as a backup in case Tor runs into real problems? The US gov needs Tor to work, but they don't need it to have the reliable uptime Bitcoiners need for running a successful node.
reply
201 sats \ 7 replies \ @nerd2ninja 28 Oct 2022
Solution? Well what's the problem? If you're on the cash app lightning network for example and you want to be on a lightning network that doesn't have a connection to cash app and no nodes connected to cash app will accept incoming channels from that network, well the answer is obvious. You have to close the channel and move your coins on chain then open a channel within the network you want to be in.
reply
193 sats \ 6 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022 freebie
I think he’s saying the problem is: fast forward a few years and there’ll be a two speed lightning network.
One permissioned, surveilling all users, and censorable.
The other, slow and barely usable, but ‘free’
reply
0 sats \ 5 replies \ @nerd2ninja 28 Oct 2022
Hmm. You know I've been thinking about ways we can improve Phoenix wallet. I think the best method is to have it come with a "companion desktop application" and that companion app is a containerized LN node that the app connects to and then has some automatic system for figuring out which LN node to connect to.
We have the containers already, just maybe some more scripts on them to make automatic smooth brain set up easy: https://lightningpolar.com/
Basically, I'm talking about how to make this easier where you don't have to connect to larger nodes to be on LN. I also think we're on the right track by focusing on small community development. Local community barter networks and trade networks. Within networks like this, making it easy to connect your smooth brain 0 config LN node to your buddy I think will be paramount.
reply
0 sats \ 4 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
Smooth brain… one-click… You’re speaking my language! I don’t have lightning setup on my node yet.
And the focus on building smaller networks does sound like a good path forward. Many smaller networks that can connect to each other.
How do we solve the underlying dependency on a slow Tor network. Could your one-click thingy have an option to run a Tor relay as well?
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
When you say ‘ways to improve Phoenix’ do you run it, or contribute to it?
Either way, thanks for your work. Today’s my first day on SN and I just downloaded Phoenix to try the LN Auth feature - so cool! How does it even work!? Such a great experience
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nerd2ninja 28 Oct 2022
I have Phoenix on my phone. When I say ways to improve it, I do mean ways to contribute to the codebase. Unfortunately, I'm mostly a ruby guy and I have a lot of ideas for lots of things so you gotta kinda wittle your ideas to a few actionable ones. So I don't know that I could make the improvements myself.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
I see I see. Well at least you have ideas.
I’m not a dev so my contributions are zero. You’re miles in front of me and I appreciate any and all work you do do.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 28 Oct 2022
When you write a script, you write it to your hearts content. So yes, you could write it to automatically connect to Tor. However, Tor is a network of layered encryption called onion routing designed around privacy, not efficiency. If you use Tor, you accept the experience of using Tor.
reply
307 sats \ 3 replies \ @sommerfeld 28 Oct 2022
I honestly don't understand the issue. People are free to connect and open channels to whoever they want. If many isolated networks arise, so be it.
reply
100 sats \ 2 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022 freebie
I guess he’s saying: fast forward a few years and there’ll be a two speed lightning network.
One permissioned, surveilling all users, and censorable.
The other, slow and barely usable, but ‘free’
reply
1 sat \ 1 reply \ @sommerfeld 28 Oct 2022
In a way that already happens. The entire economy already functions on a network that is independent from the LN.
Sure it sucks that I cannot use lightning in my local grocery store but I can still get value from it by using with whoever is on the network.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 29 Oct 2022
And the entire economy is surveilled and tracked. Bitcoin was aiming for peer-to-peer and if we can’t use it in that way, instead having to rely on intermediaries to send payments then we’re back at square one
reply
193 sats \ 0 replies \ @f321x 28 Oct 2022
Less fearmongering, never had problems sending payments to any fully regulated business from my Tor pleb node. There will always be some route to your desired receiver as 'regulated' is not a binary state.
reply
193 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 28 Oct 2022
I think this is a good thing. As someone on the chain pointed out, there can be, in essence, many lightning networks.
reply
204 sats \ 3 replies \ @0260378aef 28 Oct 2022
Paradoxically, if we could solve this problem, it would mean that LN had failed. If it is permissionless you can't stop people building permissioned systems that use it.
(note how I'm not even disagreeing that it's a problem).
reply
222 sats \ 1 reply \ @Majjin 28 Oct 2022
I think this is something people need to realize. If Bitcoin is truly free, that means people can and will build permissioned and centralized systems and services atop it. Doesn't mean you can't discourage it, but that's the reality.
reply
179 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 28 Oct 2022
Here here! The solution is the discourage it and encourage the people around you to use the nonpermissioned systems.
reply
100 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
I feel like he’s saying the problem is in the future, by denying it’s a problem, we’ll see two networks. One, the ‘free’ one which will be slow and barely usable. The other, which everyone will default too will be permissioned. If it’s permissioned and transactions are censorable and it’s the only real option for using lightning, what have we achieved? He’s not talking about today he’s talking 5-10+ more years from now as usage keeps growing
reply
285 sats \ 1 reply \ @029fab2312 28 Oct 2022 freebie
noob here, but what is the breakdown of nodes that run just tor, clearnet and both. Couldn't the default lightning node implementation support both tor and clearnet so users are offered more choice on which to use?
reply
100 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
Im not expert either but most all implementations support both already I think.
I feel like Matt’s point is not ‘run our lightning nodes on Tor’ but ‘what are we going to do about our dependency on Tor for sovereign bitcoin/lightning usage’
Tor is slow, surveilled, and open to attack
On the node issue, down this post @k00b linked this post which has a chart on node counts
reply
81 sats \ 6 replies \ @k00b 28 Oct 2022
More advanced users. Less advanced self-custody.
reply
100 sats \ 5 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022 freebie
Interesting 🤔 How does less advanced self custody solve it, and what does that look like?
reply
177 sats \ 4 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
Because less advanced self custody means people can run their own lightning nodes and open channels?
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b 28 Oct 2022
Self-custody means I and I alone can spend my funds. That's what it means to me at least. If someone can run a lightning node for me and open channels for me, but not spend my funds without my approval (ie signatures), that's self-custody still but far less advanced than me running my own lightning node and managing channels. If running a node myself and opening channels myself becomes one-click trivial, that's less advanced self-custody.
The problem to me isn't that permissioned systems exist. It's that they are 10x easier to use than permissionless versions. If we can close that gap, this problem proportionally minimizes imo.
reply
186 sats \ 2 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
Right that does make sense and I hope we can close that gap. What I don’t know is, how we can solve the problem of sovereign lightning being relegated to slower networks.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 28 Oct 2022
The main thing that makes the sovereign network slow is Tor, but Tor isn't a dependency of lightning - IP is. Better, faster overlay networks will emerge. .e.g. @l0k1 is working on Indra. VPN-like services will improve. NAT holepunching will improve.
If we acknowledge slowness is a problem, it's hard for me to imagine we just accept the problem and don't solve it.
I don't want to minimize threats/problems, but maximizing them by assuming software stasis is sillier.
reply
100 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022
Right. Now that really does make sense. Will check out link. Thanks
And thanks for SN too! Been here only few hours and really enjoying it ✌️
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jeff 29 Oct 2022
It's all still hard money.
Not the worst outcome.
It's sub-optimal, yah, but it's hard money.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 29 Oct 2022
If you can’t use it, is it that great an outcome?
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @faithandcredit 28 Oct 2022
proxies
reply
100 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ OP 28 Oct 2022 freebie
sorry, i’m so new to lightning, what do you mean?
reply