Why do left leaning folks not get Bitcoin? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Why do left leaning folks not get Bitcoin?

908 sats \ 64 comments \ @charonnakamoto 2 Feb bitcoin

I had a fascinating discussion with a group of left-leaning individuals(some of them socialist anarchists), and I was taken aback by their strong, instinctual opposition to Bitcoin when I proposed it as a potential solution to a problem they were facing. Their unanimous reaction was one of intense dislike and even anger, which I found puzzling. Given their intelligence in other matters, I struggled to understand why they were being so irrational and resistant to the idea of Bitcoin.

I'm perplexed by how these individuals could have such a strong, emotional reaction to Bitcoin without having thoroughly researched or understood it. What's even more surprising is that this reaction occurred during an in-person conversation, where I brought up Bitcoin multiple times, giving them opportunities to engage with the idea, yet their instinctual aversion remained unchanged.

It seems that people often come to understand and appreciate Bitcoin when they're facing a critical situation or a significant problem, much like Michael Saylor did when his company was struggling with an existential crisis, and he ultimately found a solution through Bitcoin. But I worry that people who don’t have a strong footing in private property will never adopt it. Alas, everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve, I guess.

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96 sats \ 10 replies \ @kepford 2 Feb

I mean bitcoin is very free market oriented. You did say left anarchist though so I'm curious about that aspect. It doesn't surprise me when leftists don't like bitcoin. It's has a libertarian and anarcho capitalist economic philosophy underneath it. That's not to say they should not like it, just that it will require them to drop some of their ideals.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin 2 Feb

Left anarchist = fucking communists

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 2 Feb

No, this is not the case at all. It’s absurd to even say this. The green box isn’t communist!

Why would someone… against the state… be pro centralization of the state and resources. Not all leftist political positions are communist, just like not all right political positions are nazis.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 2 Feb

Yes, fuck'em'all, left and right. Just be an individual that don't give a fuck about any ideology bullshit.

The green box isn’t communist!

I have news for you... the green is the most communist but you don't know it yet, because you never lived under a communist regime to know it.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 2 Feb

I echo the fuck em all left and right!

But I think the most important distinction is anti-authoritarian. A left-right dichotomy there comes down to who pays for garbage collection, etc.

We have words to communicate concepts with others, and words have definitions.

You are of course welcome to use whatever words you like, even make up new words; but it’s not the fault of others who misunderstand when you go against those words definitions.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 2 Feb

But I think the most important distinction is anti-authoritarian

So if a government is "less" authoritarian (gives you netflix and internet) you agree with... right. So let's go to basics...

So please tell me how the fuck green is not communism now.

Or maybe I should put it from another perspective

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 2 Feb

This ☝️

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @purpurato 2 Feb

These type of people are always waiting for solutions from above, they lack the courage and personal responsibility of taking matters on their own hand. This is imo the worst legacy of the state virus in people's minds.

I've seen student protests here in my country for many reasons: public education budget cuts, police abuses, military crimes... In one of those a student was killed and it broke my heart to think that it was all for nothing. Their protests only legitimate master-slave relationship between individuals and their governments. Lefties are even more statists than the right wing fellows.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 2 Feb

Their protests only legitimate master-slave relationship between individuals and their governments.

💯

103 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 2 Feb

I'm curious about the anarchists you mention. Are they the destructive antifa type or real anarcho syndicalist types?

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

They're the Noam Chomsky 'On Anarchism' kinda socialist anarchists that want the workers to own the factories and dismantle the government and want anyone who is hierarchically above to justify their position and shared resources type. I do not find the idea very coherent, so I also struggle to put it into words. I lose the plot when someone says an individual cannot own private property. Then the whole idea of trade breaks down, and then the prices. I can appreciate some communes that trade, like the Kibbutz in Israel, but I haven't read anything like a Rothbard equivalent of a socialist anarchist who lays out their arguments clearly from first principles coherently.

103 sats \ 6 replies \ @Aardvark 2 Feb

https://cryptoslate.com/us-bitcoiners-lean-liberal-but-report-shows-politics-less-divisive-than-many-think/

Political bias isn't very high among Bitcoin holders. Just because the people you were talking to were left leaning doesn't mean it's why they were against Bitcoin.

“Our survey of 3,538 adults in the US found bitcoin ownership: -covers the full spectrum of political identity -is skewed young and male -correlates weakly with a unique profile of moral values -correlates strongly with knowledge of bitcoin”

281 sats \ 4 replies \ @endothermicdev 2 Feb

This is a good point. I think there are plenty of people who are left leaning and already into bitcoin. However, if you pitch bitcoin to an average progressive nocoiner today, you're likely to be met with insurmountable resistance. They've told it's horrible for the environment, itself causing ransomware attacks and scamming old ladies, and beyond that they may think money the technology is evil too.

The average conservative is also going to be against it, but it's not so much of an uphill battle.

A willingness to give bitcoin a chance probably has more to do with: being intellectually curious, maintaining an open mind, and not sitting too comfortably in the economic system we already have.

61 sats \ 3 replies \ @Aardvark 2 Feb

The stats disagree, if conservatives were less likely to resist it then there would be a greater political bias among bitcoiners.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @endothermicdev 2 Feb

Right, my point was that a 2028 survey of bitcoiners may show a different balance than the 2024 survey.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Aardvark 2 Feb

Sure. It could just as easily show a more liberal skew as well, but I tend to believe the biggest corelation is going to continue being knowledge of bitcoin.

127 sats \ 0 replies \ @endothermicdev 2 Feb

It could, and I really hope it continues to show no correlation.

From anecdotal experience, I've had success with politically moderate types who were concerned with just saving a nest egg. I've also had some success with right-wing ideologues. The most trouble I've had was with progressives who had supported the occupy Wall St movement. I was a bit flabbergasted, because I see bitcoin as trying to solve the same problems and literally the same diagnosis of the problem (Chancellor on brink of second bailout) but with an actual plan. That was frustrating.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 2 Feb

-covers the full spectrum of political identity

The spectrum being the "left" vs "right" dichotomy, which is a distraction from what really matters, i.e. freedom vs tyranny.

You could as well as bitcoiners if they like apples or oranges better and conclude they cover the full spectrum of political identity, because about as many prefer apples as do oranges.

35 sats \ 4 replies \ @justin_shocknet 2 Feb

Given their intelligence

Lol, leftists can be knowledgeable on subjects in the spergy sense... But they're leftists because they're pathologically not intelligent... They don't operate on rationale and truth, they operate on emotions and consensus

Only a leftist could be an empath but simultaneously against individual sovereignty

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

There are a huge number of 'leftists' into Bitcoin. I would argue that Snowden and Assange were all 'leftists' too.. but both instrumental to Bitcoin development history and ideology.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 2 Feb

They were leftists for undermining corrupted leftism peddling governments?

Pretty clear libertarians, heck Snowden is even under the protection of Putler and not Europe. (I have no doubt something with Snowden and Trump will happen with oddly convenient timing)

I'm sure there's plenty of people with some left sympathies (empathies), but are also thinkers and therefore not collectivists, and thus into Bitcoin. That's much different than an avowed collectivist who derides Bitcoin because they can't think up a way to channel it towards their goals.

Your views on Bitcoin are a direct result of how resourceful you are with information and how well you can extrapolate.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 2 Feb

I just don't like the term 'leftist' it is such a diluted term and carries all this 'external' meaning and baggage.

I think some people are socialists (a lot of people) and in fact the majority party in Germany has been 'democratic socialist' for a long time?

There there are 'communists' but there are very few of them around really. Waving the red flag, advocates for Marx etc... They are mostly confined to university economics-research departments.

For me when I think 'leftists' I think liberal democracy, and liberal institutionism. The Bill of Rights, the American constitution, the first and second amendments... these were all 'leftist' constructions opposed to monarchy and the rule of King George. THAT was leftism and I believe it still is today.

And by that extension, Bitcoin is ALL ABOUT leftism as Bitcoin is largely by and for empowering the individual and what they choose to do with their time and energy.

Protection from the state... protection from confiscation, and protection from dilution. THAT is Bitcoin and classical leftism in the spirit of the war against King George

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 2 Feb

Sure, terminology is definitely debatable... classical liberal is a term that often describes your form of leftism and I think accurate.

I was using terminology as the OP had in their attempt to untangle irrationally overlapping ideas. Nomenclature aside, my point being that anti-bitcoin and collectivist ideologies cluster as a symptom of a deeper psychological profile.

69 sats \ 0 replies \ @ChrisS 2 Feb

A lot of people like to complain and eloquently describe problems without actually trying to look for solutions and solve the problems. And when you offer solutions to problems they are describing their first instinct is to tell you all the reasons why it won't work.

18 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 2 Feb

Their unanimous reaction was one of intense dislike and even anger, which I found puzzling

I'm perplexed by how these individuals could have such a strong, emotional reaction to Bitcoin without having thoroughly researched or understood it

That's what the left has become on any topic, not just bitcoin.

Not really sure how it got that way... but they display more religious fervor over their beliefs than most actually religious people.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

The 'left' most people ascribe too... actually corresponds to classical liberalism. Which is more akin to the Libertarianism of today.

And in that sense, Leftists are huge Bitcoiners.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 2 Feb

imagine if Trump said, my favorite color is blue

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @godlikeXi 2 Feb

Remember when you first got into Bitcoin? Most people never dive that deeply into Bitcoin. It's too nerdy and they just don't get it. It's like a cheat code to financial freedom and sovereignty. You either get it or you don't...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

I think Bitcoin 'fills in the gaps' of other, prior education and life experience.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger 2 Feb

These type of people hate real freedom, because it means responsability and taking actions towards individual sovranity, they don't want that. They want that some iluminated minds make paradise on earth for them, because in their heads there's nothing they can do.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BTC_Commons 3 Feb

I am one such leftist individual. And let me tell you, not even I can get any of my friends or colleagues to listen. It's really impossible. They just won't think outside their box.

And since they are so confined within those boxes (a.k.a. dogmas), the can't even begin to conceptualize the problem that Bitcoin solves. In other words, they don't have the slightest clue how the game is being played today (i.e. Cantillon effect), why unions and "movements" have been having their asses handed to them since 1971, and why without Bitcoin, the little people will never win.

A few examples of boxes:

Marx et.al.:

--- What they think: Based on this box, Capitalism exploits people by paying workers less than what they produce. So historically, workers banded together into labor unions and syndicates to strike and fight for higher wages.

-- Why this is outdated and ineffective today: Those with access to the money printer can simply print money, and make workers lose income through inflation faster than workers can bargain for wage increases. Organizing millions of people takes time, energy, while all the other side needs to do is... press keys on a computer. In short, this would be like fighting a modern war with muskets and bayonets, while the enemy is using...tactical nukes, AI and swarm drones.

Anarcho-primitivism: This is hilarious. I actually had someone argue this.

-- He, a self avowed anarchist who is doing a PhD at a prestigious leftist academic institution, said that the solution to the dollar system and money printing, is to revert to societies without money. LOL. Might as well get rid of the wheel, gunpowder, and fire too since we are at it.

There are many more such boxes. It's almost infinite.

And it's all so moronic; the degree to which they have their heads in the sand. As a leftist, I feel like the fellows of my ilk in the US are hopeless. Maybe 70 years of having their heads bashed in by the FED and their merry band of bankers, has left the left in a state of catatonic, reflexive stupidity. Incapable of engaging, much less absorbing any new ideas at all. A kind of weird learned helplessness that makes them feel all cozy and comfortable in their little boxes of utopian fantasies or callous denial.

It's sad. I am sad about it.

9 sats \ 4 replies \ @stack_harder 2 Feb

a lot of them are just as uninterested and uneducated as the average person, memorized a few media soundbites and seen one too many crypto bros and formed an opinion.

i would imagine that for a leftie the whole 'bitcoin is bad for the environment' line is a big deal too

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

What you mentioned above is my primary thesis as well- know enough to sound cynical and pseudo-intellectual at a party, but not enough to put their money on their position(either short or long based on their conviction levels)

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

I think the 'crypto bros' have confused the public. eventually the markets will figure it out but it will take time.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @stack_harder 2 Feb

yeah, to most people cyrpto has extreme negative association, and when you look at half the crooks and dickheads in the space, it's not hard to see why

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

Bitcoin only. Self-custody to the greatest extent practical. Free, open-source hardware and software. Patience. And above all else education

This is what makes Bitcoin great.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @itsMoro 2 Feb

same experience for me living in Pacific Northwest. not sure why, other than their framework for progress typically involves a path that doesnt include money so, i guess their brains quickly identify it as a threat to their beliefs 🤷‍♂️

9 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan 2 Feb

They do (Maier, Cross etc).

I just don't think they stay left particularly long.

My working hypothesis for the kind of left-leaning person you're describing is that bitcoin seems like a technobabbling, Trumpian, financial market plaything, and this must by definition be bad and tainted.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

Yes, it makes sense. However, once you explore the world of private property, profits, prices, and voluntary exchange, it is difficult to reconcile that with the taxation structure and theft that the left casually proposes daily.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 2 Feb

truly

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @kruw 2 Feb

Socialism is merely the philosophy of envy followed by the practice of looting. Bitcoin, which is the strongest form of property, is the bane that eliminates socialism.

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard 2 Feb

everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve, I guess.

That's the only true answer

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 2 Feb

A resource that might help:

I can recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Progressives-Case-Bitcoin-Equitable-Peaceful/dp/B0C1J3DC2X
Here is the author on a podcast:

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ge 2 Feb

They see it but don't want to see it similar to Cypher in the matrix...some one them believe in the system so much their willing to die for it. Lots goes into it maybe they feel they missed the boat....They believe what they wanna believe

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

I am VERY liberal, vote Democrat, support liberal policies (like free trade) and voted for Kamala.

And I 'got' Bitcoin immediately. It is provably scarce, extremely difficult to make, and has enormous utility. That's it.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

I apologize for my sweeping statement about the 'left' not getting Bitcoin. I know plenty of people like you get Bitcoin and that Bitcoin is for everyone. This anti-capitalist sentiment is just becoming so fashionable with some of the left-leaning folks I have spent time with that I am unable to comprehend how they say those things while wearing trendy clothes and accessories that they could never be in their grasp in a communist world.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

Thanks for your comment. There are some 'generalizations'... about left and right that obscure the issues and dilute Bitcoin's mission sometimes. Bitcoiners should stand together... not use left/right political terms that divide us... when we should be standing together.

As far as the 'trendy anti-cap people...' the West opening up to China and its cheap labor has had enormous consequences for Western societies especially politically/economically. People respond to this in different ways.

Mr Trump is one outcome. So is Bernie Sanders. The folks you were talking to have just had one set of reactions?

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 2 Feb

Ironically, most of these “projects” to establish circular economies within Bitcoin tend to be far more Anarcho-syndicalist than ancap.

You think you wanna be ancap and oppress the plebs, but in reality its going to be the Bezos Musk and Zuck family oppressing your pleb family and decedents forever.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

Can you elaborate on your reasoning for both of the points you raise? I don't understand why circular economies of consenting individuals participating in trade using magic internet money are not ancap. Also, what does oppressing the plebs mean?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 2 Feb

The end state of large scale (whole of society) anarchocapitalism is neofeudalism. Wealthy monopolists can extract wealth far more efficiently, and simply reform as Kings. You see this manifesting as 21st century oligarchies today. “The Rent is due pleb…”.

Without protection from either the state, or smaller voluntary groups that of aligned interests; there is nothing to prevent coercive actions from the economically powerful. The selfishness of the human will always result in oppression.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @charonnakamoto OP 3 Feb

There won’t be monopolies in an ancap world, so your arguments are founded on a weak base. So, what’s your solution- shift to communism?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 3 Feb

When monopolies on resources manifest in all layers of life in the universe, I really don’t believe “ancap utopia” would be any different.

I’m not offering any solution, let alone communism, ew. There is no solution, we are cooked.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xIlmari 2 Feb

Bitcoin is the essence of property rights - money that you truly own yourself.

Communists are the enemies of private property. They want everything to be taken away and given to those in need. (In reality: given to those in power.)

Thus:

Leftist politicians don't like Bitcoin because they can't steal it.
Leftist voters don't like Bitcoin because politicians can't steal it and give them welfare for watching TV all day.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 2 Feb

Why are you hanging around with sub-humans?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 2 Feb

Subhumans don't understand that the government is a significant factor in the wealth of nations.

They deserve to be informed and educated no matter how long it takes because they are incapable of a reasoned response defending their naive and dangerous Libertarian lunacy.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 2 Feb

Libertarians get angry and irrational when it is stated that the nation state and its power projection is the most significant factor in the wealth of nations.

Note-I am a Bitcoiner with strong left leaning views on economic matters and see Bitcoin as a significant development in providing a much needed competitive alternative to the fiat bankers who have come to own most liberal western democracies by stealth and patronage.

I struggle to understand Libertarian/neoliberal Bitcoiners whose market forces/anti government ideology resulted in bankers taking control of liberal western democracies.

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @charonnakamoto OP 2 Feb

I can appreciate where you are coming from. We currently have a crony capitalism setup and not a free-market capitalism setup. We would never have too big to-fail banks in a free market. I doubt we would even have the monopolies we do today without cronyism. It is the lobbying by big companies that curry favor with politicians across the world that has led to suboptimal capital allocations.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 2 Feb

Bitcoin should be apolitical.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 2 Feb

Because the left intrinsically believes that we don’t own our own bodies, lives, choices, property, and labor.

They believe that we belong to society and that 51% of the people should make the rules for 100% of the people.

Since bitcoin is natively a tool for promotion of self sovereignty, the left struggles with understanding and implementing it because their beliefs are not based on individual rights and sovereignty.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wetoshi 2 Feb

Plot twist, they’re not that smart. 🤷🏻‍♂️