1 sat \ 23 replies \ @nerd2ninja 5 Jan 2023 \ parent \ on: LNURL deposits coming to Muun Wallet soon! bitcoin
Muun doesn't claim to be a lightning wallet? Who are these people who claimed it on their behalf then? What the heck happened in between? How did we fuck up our messaging, our explaination to newbies about what muun is so badly that we now have users who are jaded about the "failed lightning network" and Bitcoin because "lightning doesn't work, the fees are just as bad as using on-chain"?
No. Wallet of Satoshi is an account. There is the argument that its okay to use an account for such small amounts of money and if you're accepting that risk then very well, you are empowered.
Wallet of satoshi claim to be a bitcoin lightning wallet right on the first message of their website.
Muun claims to be a self custody wallet for bitcoin and lightning.
I'm not sure where you are getting the information. but just reading each website, you should figure out who is the scammer.
Just saying...
my personal opinion, I don't think WoS or Muun are scammers, but I prefer a self custody over an "account".
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Under the FAQ, under "What is Wallet of Satoshi?"
"It is a zero-configuration custodial wallet"
Custodial = an account
Wallet = You own and control your Bitcoin
You do not control your Bitcoin in an account.
Its the same psyop as "Unhosted wallets" Its either a wallet, or an account. A hosted wallet is an oxymoron.
Muun: "self custody wallet for bitcoin and lightning"
Probably should be:
"Self-custody wallet facilitating Lightning swaps".
You don't self-custody a lightning channel with muun, you can not force close channels and most importantly in my view, people are conflating this with being representative of what its like to use the lightning network.
I'm serious about this. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zxee9g/comment/j1zrneo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Bitcoin sucks What wallet did you use? Curious Muun
Also even for on-chain custody muun is really out of spec with their seed phrases and things....but that's just a weird quirk I wanted to point out.
The people of El Salvador think their Chivo account is Bitcoin and because Chivo sucks, they think Bitcoin sucks.
There's just a lot of really bad problems that have occured due to an attempt to abstract away what should never have been abstracted away.
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For the most part all lightning wallets are going to be custodial.
Only maxis with enough money to build a reliable lightning node with decent liquidity will have true on-chain and lightning self custody control of their sats.
IMO Muun is simply providing an easy way to move your self custodial sats (on chain) over to the lightning network.
Wallet or not, lightning is always going to be custodial so the difference (and risk) in using a dedicated lightning wallet over Muun is minimal.
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Phoenix and breez operates a lightning node on your phone.
Those a custodial wallet for you?
To me if you hold the keys is non custodial, that means muun is non custodial, phoenix and breez either.
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For the most part all lightning wallets are going to be custodial.
And yet, I'm being told that Phoenix and Breez are somehow too complicated due to them being lightning network nodes in spite of the fact that I've easily gotten reddit users with their only experience of lightning being the reddit lntip bot using those wallets.
Some people like to call these "custodial" on the other hand because they don't require channel rebalancing, the on-chain is custodial (unless you force close the channels and back up from seed phrase in pheonix) and because they use LSPs.
Their needs to be a distinction because a "hosted wallet" and a "self hosted wallet". Pheonix and breez are self hosted wallets and yet "custodial" by some people's standards. Its been my standard to say a hosted wallet just means its custodial, means its an account, feel free to disagree with my view so that I better shape my own view.
Again, feel free to use muun this isn't what this is about, this is about using language that makes clear what these things are to people.
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Some people like to call these "custodial" on the other hand because they don't require channel rebalancing, the on-chain is custodial (unless you force close the channels and back up from seed phrase in pheonix) and because they use LSPs.
That interpretation of custodial doesn't apply to anything else. That'd be like claiming Electrum is custodial because it manages your keys for you.
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I'm with you. Just pointing out the different positions that I've seen people taking regarding these things. Particularly, people running straight LND are the one's calling what Phoenix and Breez do to be custodial.
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Sometimes people call Breez and Phoenix "semi-custodial" - because they can't make random payment on your behalf, but they can block you from making a payment.
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Any LN node you connect to can block you from making a payment. I'm most familiar with Phoenix. If Phoenix blocks your payment you can force close the channel and backup from the seed phrase.
it is the same if you don't use your own node to broadcast your bitcoin onchain transactions.
Again, if you hold your keys, to me is a non-custodial wallet.
If you are happy with the opinion of one guy in reddit and is enough for you, that's fine for me.
I don't think there is point to keep arguing, muun will be there, jack mallers and dorsey and other big names will keep using it and there is nothing we can do about it.
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Its not just one guy on reddit I was just trying to give an example! Damn...
The point in arguing is to be clear about the words we use so that clearly different things are not conflated. Its the reason we say Bitcoin is not crypto (its a social construct) to further people's understanding. To make more clear what things are.
Even if most people stay confused, your sphere of influence matters.
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To be honest with you, I don't think muun its a scam, the way how they use lightning is well explained on their blog, and they explained on tweets that the actual form of the wallet is not the final, and the goal is to migrate the funds to lightning channels in the future, they are trying to figure out how.
I find the attack to muun very political, seeing that other wallets like WoS who are custodial and not a wallet but a neobank, and they still define themselves on the website as bitcoin wallet, and still is well defended by people who attack muun for the "lightning definition", which kill their argument. as WoS do not represent bitcoin in any sense.
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Not a scam, just so poor of an implementation and explanation that it's frustrating users.
If your argument requires splitting hairs, you're going to confuse a great many of the people.
Imagine family Feud. We showed 100 audience members muun wallet. How many got pissed off and quit Bitcoin all together?
A Bitcoin lightning wallet needs to be able to send BTC LN transactions for a sat in a second without needing an on chain transaction for each LN transaction. Waiting more than a second makes it a busted ass half ass retarded dumb shit fix it fix it fix it stop making excuses kind of a solution.
Continue to apologize though. It's good sport. Unfortunately it emboldens the problem to sit unfixed. But whatever.
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Not a scam, just so poor of an implementation and explanation that it's frustrating users.
Not here to promote or defend Muum, I can understand your arguments and I agree.
But: where you see frustrated users? I see everywhere happy user that vote/promote Muum, without any apparent personal interest.
I suppose they are happy with it.
And usually negative feedback have an higher bias towards positive ones, so the latter seem genuine.
This should make everyone think about the importance of the users experience and how to bring them to the correct path of discover and experience a totally new technology.
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Bitcoin sucks What wallet did you use? Curious Muun
Okay but that's just some guy on Reddit
Why I switched from Muun wallet to Phoenix wallet.
I personally never used muun, but I still felt lied to when I found out all the people telling me about the muun lightning wallet were wrong because muun is using on-chain swaps for lightning not lightning by itself
and I find its causing problems where people link muun's on-chain fees are lightning network fees and believe lightning has failed as a result of their "lightning network" experience with muun.
Its the same problem I saw with people using "custodial wallets" as some people call them, like Chivo and thinking because that app sucks and those apps are Bitcoin, that Bitcoin sucks, when it isn't even Bitcoin at all.