1604 sats \ 7 replies \ @sethforprivacy 12 May 2023
I responded here, point-by-point:
https://twitter.com/sethforprivacy/status/1657094966722584585?s=20
Absurd and demoralizing premise, especially when it's coming from a custodial exchange that financially benefits from denigrating self-custody and making it seem far harder and more daunting than it is.
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
About publishing on Swan. #177707
On the rest: either we didn't do a good job explaining, or you have not taken the time to appreciate the thought that went into this and are out here trying to collect cheap points. It doesn't help that you misrepresent the points of the article. Not sure if I have the nerve or patience to dissect your misrepresentations.
Also don't appreciate accusations about "financially benefiting" etc. It's an attack on character, while I'm here arguing in good faith.
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251 sats \ 5 replies \ @sethforprivacy 12 May 2023
The article is published on a custodians website, not sure how you thought that wouldn't raise obvious red flags.
On the rest: I think I understood your point well and disagree at a fundamental level. You are all for cheering on "good" custodians (like Swan, I assume) as supposedly they bring mass adoption.
I view all custodians as threats to Bitcoin and custodial Bitcoin as simply PayPal 2.0 without any of the intrinsic benefits of Bitcoin.
The literal, described purpose of Bitcoin in the whitepaper is to remove the need for trusted third parties. Re-introducing them and spending thousands of words cheering them on and intentionally denigrating self-custody is not something I'll sit idly by and watch happen.
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100 sats \ 4 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
- Swan is not a custodian.
- Custodial Bitcoin is not Paypal 2.0 - you can withdraw custodial bitcoin to self-custody - cannot do that with Paypal.
Get your facts right.
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140 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 13 May 2023
You can only withdraw bitcoin from swan if swan lets you do that.
I myself run into that issue, when I had to wait days until they allowed my withdrawal. For security reasons of course.
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121 sats \ 1 reply \ @sethforprivacy 12 May 2023
- They are via Prime Trust, their custodian.
- Maybe, maybe not. That's the whole deal with PayPal as well. It might be your money or it might not depending on the whims of the custodian. That is not Bitcoin.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
- They are working with a custodian - they are not the custodian, so they are not talking their book, trying to lure people who can self-custody into custody like you suggested.
- The concept of bitcoin banks is almost as old as bitcoin. Hal Finney was one of the first to suggest it. And no matter what you want, they will exist, and for good reason.
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121 sats \ 0 replies \ @SirGalahodl 12 May 2023
Swan outsources their custodianship, which is arguably worse.
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1111 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 12 May 2023
So wait, a custodial exchange is advocating custodial bitcoin at a time when there is less bitcoin on exchanges than ever before?
This is a shocker.
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10 sats \ 2 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
The reason we asked Swan if they want to publish is because they understand the importance of self-custody, advocate it relentlessly, but are realists who understand that the journey to self-custody needs education and time. It's only when you actually put in the work to help people understand bitcoin that you understand these things yourself, just like the people at Bitcoin Beach, Bitcoin Jungle, Bitcoin Island... all the places that managed to bootstrap bitcoin circular economies in meatspace with significant network effect in a sustainable way
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51 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 12 May 2023
I'm not hating on Swan. I dca with them myself. I just think the point would have been made more persuasively if the author had no skin in the game.
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
I've been working on Bitcoin adoption since 2017, way before I joined Galoy. It's not that I think what I wrote because I work for Galoy - I work for Galoy because bitcoin adoption and the separation of money state was the mission I want to work on.
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612 sats \ 1 reply \ @Chep 12 May 2023
Fantastic article, I really appreciate this perspective. I would never tell someone to keep their life savings on wallet of satoshi, but for showing them the power of sending 10k sats instantly I think it's a game changer. Teaching people about various tradeoffs is much easier to do once they've already taken the orange pill. Most Bitcoiners will likely use custodial solutions for micropayments and hopefully self custody with a hardware wallet for large savings
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117 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
Thank you. This article was particularly inspired by the needs of communities in the Global South and the lack of empathy and understanding for their circumstances. Custodial solutions help them now, immediately, and once they are on the network, it is much easier to educate and progress to self-custody.
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31 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 13 May 2023
Company providing custodial services writes an article about how difficult it is to self-custody. Makes sense.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @polyd_ 12 May 2023
How about we fix the scaling issues instead of this
https://twitter.com/Polyd_/status/1654583760690593794?t=ib2dtlkA5kzbEh_nyUFSxQ&s=19
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
The framework we propose is for onboarding, and it will stay relevant for some time until majority understands necessity of self-custody and it's second nature.
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101 sats \ 1 reply \ @SirGalahodl 12 May 2023
Is this the only option? I've never advised a newcomer to do this. Newcomers can download any number of excellent self-custodial wallets, including Phoenix, Breez, Samourai, Sparrow, and many others, and get started in just a few minutes without a trusted third party.
Good gracious me oh no write down 12 words! It sounds like you want your cake and eat it too. The whole point of Bitcoin is to NOT be like your bank who is a custodian.
Anyway a lot of wallets (like Breez) allow you to start receiving funds right away and will remind you later to write down your words.
Your article reads like you are projecting your experience on the incoming bitcoiner: you must spend three-digit number of hours studying bitcoin before you are qualified to self-custody. This is emphatically not the case, and there are so many good tools now that it's not even necessary.
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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 12 May 2023
I'm projecting not only my own experience, but yes, especially my own experience. When I first started using Bitcoin in 2015, I had no idea whatsoever about it. I had no idea about money or bitcoin. I needed to make digital payments and it just worked, so I looked into it further and learned. But I only looked into it, because it was useful to me. Utility of bitcoin was the trigger for wanting to learn more for me. Without that trigger, why would anybody bother looking into something like learning self-custody? So there must be interest.
Remember that only 68% of US Americans have disposable income and money to save. They are living paycheck to paycheck, and that number is higher in other countries. This means that majority of people will not consider bitcoin as a tool for savings because they have no money to save. With no money to save, how can anybody have or develop the motivation to secure (nonexistent) money properly?
The only way bitcoin can be useful to most of these people is for borderless low fee payments. This is financial inclusion and that's what people care about. With custodial Lightning it is instantly available for anyone. Just download an app. It's the quickest and lowest cost way to have financial inclusion. Then bitcoin is useful for these people, and they will care, listen, develop interest and become open to learn more about it. Any education attempt without intrinsic motivation will be shortlived and can backfire. Self-custody is risky, too, it's just different form custodial risk. Developing the confidence to do it without anxiety takes some time. It's not a matter of tools, you see.
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @travis 14 May 2023
I think the article is good.
If someone values privacy and self-custody the most, then they are obviously going to advocate for financial privacy and the acquisition of KYC-free bitcoin.
Doing that right, or mostly-right, can take a lot of extra work though. It can be intimidating to folks new to Bitcoin or new to operating digitally.
As the article explains, custodial services do play a role in Bitcoin adoption, Wallet of Satoshi being a prime example. So if your priority is Bitcoin adoption (which is certainly a righteous cause), then you are probably going to utilize certain custodial or KYC'd services to help.
I use such services to help onboard people. The services/apps are usually convenient, with simple and clean UXs, and allow people to go the self-custody route when they are ready to.
I also talk shit about regulations, the government, central banks, and the USD to those people too. I hope they become passionate about their privacy and do more research. This is easier to do after being orange pilled in the first place.
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30 sats \ 1 reply \ @Darkbulb 13 May 2023
I really dont see a way around custodians when fees are 10,000 sats/vbyte in 10 years.
The average person will not be able to afford to interact on chain, imo.
Only the largest players will be able to open and close lightning channels, and that will probably be custodians or exchanges. (WoS/Binance)
I dont see any other way for a poor farmer in Ethiopia or a young woman in Afganistan to get BTC in the future other than custodian. Maybe Fedimint.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @pretyflaco OP 13 May 2023
This is exactly right.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @jk_14 12 May 2023
similar discussion was here in comments: #176409
and yes, we are definitely in "then they fight you" phase, and there is no time to waste... :(
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xmrk2 14 May 2023
Central Bank of Argentina liked your post: https://twitter.com/TuurDemeester/status/1657366010687528960?cxt=HHwWgICxneHmkoAuAAAA
I heard about Argentinian ban of selling bitcoin before, but am surprised it is kind of retroactive in that users cannot withdraw already bought btc. Needless to say, such retroactivity is only possible with those beloved custodians.
Perhaps Liquid could help about this particular risk (restrictions imposed by government). And it has proof of reserves built-in. Still custodial, but needs majority of the federation members to be coerced, so various governments would need to cooperate. Should protect against local crisis, wouldn't be so sure about a global crisis.
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