Orange Pilling Your Lefty Friends \ stacker news ~bitcoin

8471 sats \ 73 comments \ @siggy47 19 Oct 2023 bitcoin

zaps forwarded to @anita (100%)

I have lived most of my life in the New York City area, so if I didn't have a few lefty/commie pinko friends I would be a complete loner. A few days ago my wife and I visited dear friends with whom we have next to nothing in common politically They are classic democratic party "progressives". I socialize with the husband a lot, and we have become close friends. I have of course attempted to orange pill him for years, without the slightest success. During our recent visit they began speaking about charitable causes they support. I naturally mentioned Anita Posch and the Satsraiser. They were intrigued and wanted to know why she used bitcoin. I then went into my Alex Gladstein imitation, talking about French Colonialism and the CFA. I honestly was not consciously in orange pill mode. We had a good, long conversation. When I got home the husband texted me and said he wanted to go with me to the "Bitcoin Bar"(Pub Key) the next time I went. It's probably more curiosity than anything else, but I'm hopeful. I know @k00b made a post a while back about talking to lefty friends about bitcoin. The charity angle may be effective. I'll keep you guys posted after the visit.

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403 sats \ 5 replies \ @Bitcoinisawesome 19 Oct 2023

"honestly was not consciously in orange pill mode."

Sometimes I think my best orange pill moments are derived from this sort of mindset. Perhaps it removes the "this person is trying to sell me something" vibe from the listeners perspective.

I was in Vegas recently playing poker and wonderfully enough a small business owner, a young left-leaning guy, and myself had a really nice back and forth conversation about bitcoin that all started with talking about inflation and why it exists and how it's effecting each one of us. Both of these guys were really receptive to what i had to say because it was just a conversation that wasn't started by me and i really had no intent to orange pill. However, I was getting some serious head nods of understanding and intrigue as i spoke my piece on some potential solutions to the issues that they were both organically bringing up. I unfortunately didn't bring up the amazing case for peer to peer charity.

244 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Very well said. It's kind of a zen thing. You will orange pill more effectively when you're not trying to orange pill.

305 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 19 Oct 2023

Sometimes I think my best orange pill moments are derived from this sort of mindset.

You will orange pill more effectively when you're not trying to orange pill.

I think you can say this about any kind of sale. We're all repulsed when we detect attempts to influence us. We also rob our sales pitch of its organic passion when we overthink it.

It's kind of like the "just be yourself" advice for dating.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 20 Oct 2023

It's kind of like the "just be yourself" advice for dating.

/cc @shurikencutter 👀

Even if it's advice that we can't easily follow, the advice is about being authentic

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 20 Oct 2023

Just casually orange pilling people

I like that

And lol, my phone first wanted to write "just casually orange killing people"

53 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bitman 19 Oct 2023

It'd be fun to watch a rerun of such a conversation, watch everyone's body language and speech and compare it with a full-on orange pill attempt.

A massive bonus would be to know what mental formations arise in you both too.

208 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 19 Oct 2023

TLDR: Know your friends values. What do they care about. Bitcoin is good for everyone. Do not focus on their politics and how wrong they are. Talk to them about how bitcoin relates to what they care about in the world.

There are progressive bitcoiners. It pains me to listen to them rationalize their political views in light of how bitcoin works but this is a human flaw. We will never free the world by appealing to logic and reason alone. Building a better system is the way. A system based on logic, reason, and intentional incentive structures. People are locked into their political dogma. The vast majority of people I know are not even open to questioning their views. Its pointless to argue. Better to show it by example.

133 sats \ 1 reply \ @newnym 20 Oct 2023

"I then went into my Alex Gladstein imitation, talking about French Colonialism and the CFA. I honestly was not consciously in orange pill mode. We had a good, long conversation."

I said this once and I'll say it again: the best way to make people understand bitcoin, is to make them understand the awful state of money in the world today. That is especially true, in my opinion, when you are talking to people to the left of the political spectrum, as they tend to have a more positive view of government than people on the right. In other words, you must first administer the red pill so that the organism doesn't react negatively to the orange pill. ;)

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 20 Oct 2023

In other words, you must first administer the red pill so that the organism doesn't react negatively to the orange pill. ;)

True and great analogy!

250 sats \ 3 replies \ @Brunswick 19 Oct 2023

I believe I have decoded the lefty's mind. A few days ago I realized why they seem impenetrable when you present them with facts, figures and incentives.

Here is my hypothesis why: The leftist believes in an ideology. This is obvious. But what is the ideology? The basis for the ideology is social justice. Yes, I know this sounds cliche, but give it another thought;

Q: What does it mean to be for social justice?
A: To be for social justice is to prefer feelings of empathy and community over self-interest.

When an orange-pilled and red-pilled corn hodler presents bitcoin to the leftist, they present all of the aspects the leftist sees as repulsive. Even though the leftist will live in the lap of luxury dining on fine wines, cheeses, beers, sweet meats, they do it eschewing money and wealth.

The orange pilled will react to this behavior as hypocritical and contradictory, but this is the source of the leftist's guilt. To point it out to them only serves to throw them into cognitive dissonance, and this is no way to make friends. This is the fault line of the political divide. The leftist resents the non-leftist for embracing self-interest and political policies that embrace individual responsibility.

To get to the core of the matter;

The leftist has a belief system that if we all hold to certain values such as egalitarianism and fairness, with government policy (of course), it will eventually overcome the evils of greed and unbounded wealth and everyone will eventually be free of oppressive imbalances of power.

Therefore, to present them with facts to the contrary is only to reinforce their belief system. They only see your inconvenient evidence that proves their ideology counterproductive as a temporary obstacle that will eventually fade away as their utopic vision finally overcomes the present darkness imposed by the evil industrialist.

What say you, does this provide any value to the conversation?

451 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Yes. I agree. Expressing bitcoin as a tool of "social justice" seemed to work in my case. When talking about this when @k00b made his post I also mentioned Satoshi's Genesis block referring to England bailing out the banks, and the ideological kinship with Occupy Wall Street. Attacking banks is an effective common ground also, IMO.

186 sats \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 20 Oct 2023

To them, banks represent capitalism (without distinguishing between the crony and the free market varieties), to us they represent statism / cronyism. So maybe cronyism in general is the largest common denominator to attack.

I always thought of myself as being against leftism, but then I read that agorist is left-wing libertarian, because Konkin made this important distinction between cronyism and free market capitalism, and due to perhaps confusing terminology, considered himself anti-capitalist, meaning anti-cronyist.

The hardest part may be to convince the leftist that regulation serves cronyism under the pretense of protecting the people.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 20 Oct 2023

You said a lot there. I find it infuriating when I get the glib response from leftists along the lines of "well, we tried the free market, and look where it got us", as if the U.S. had embraced free market capitalism.

332 sats \ 4 replies \ @southside263 19 Oct 2023

bitcoin feeds the greed.

lefties love: diversity, social justice and the environment.

the bitcoin bridge is massive to cross...

i know this, because im a leftie :P

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Come along! How far are you from NYC? He'd like a fellow traveler.

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @southside263 19 Oct 2023

have you heard of the All Blacks rugby team...?

NZ - we're next to Australia lol

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

I have! A close friend was a rugby player in San Francisco. He somehow befriended New Zealand rugby players, who he was always putting up at his house. They reciprocated by inviting him to visit New Zealand. He loved it, and bought a house there. I don't know exactly where. I think he still owns it, but he can't travel much anymore for health reasons.

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @southside263 19 Oct 2023

695 sats \ 3 replies \ @Haths 20 Oct 2023

This entire thread will push away anyone that is politically left leaning.

I know that, because I am that person. We aren’t aliens from another planet, we aren’t unapproachable, we aren’t stupid people, we are just people. I, for one, have not been left leaning my whole life and still have many conservative viewpoints. However, in the USA, the GOP is a clown show who cannot govern. That isn’t an opinion, it is a fact, just look at the house.

Bitcoin is money, and is a-political. What you are hoping to do is gaslight orange pill people because you think your political views are superior and have overlayed them on Bitcoin. You don’t need to. There are perfectly sound cases for Bitcoin along the entire political spectrum.

That said…

Bitcoin does not give a solitary fuck about politics, and the only reason this discussion is even remotely interesting is because there is a internet bubble where Bitcoiners sit around talking about sunning their balls and sucking off Elon Musk while grilling steaks and jerking each other off with their political viewpoints.

Bitcoin is for everyone. Fuck off.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 20 Oct 2023

we aren’t unapproachable

Bitcoiners sit around talking about sunning their balls and sucking off Elon Musk while grilling steaks and jerking each other off with their political viewpoints.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Haths 20 Oct 2023

Not the dunk you think it is. I’ve been friendly with people who are described in that quote for years and years.

I was only able to do this by hiding my political leanings to instead focus on Bitcoin. It’s exhausting, and I’m tired of pretending it is not.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 20 Oct 2023

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64 sats \ 0 replies \ @Athena_Alpha 20 Oct 2023

While the whole lefties and righties thing is useless for ensuring an effective democratic process and debate, we get what you mean and selling Bitcoin to lefties has multiple excellent angles

Climate Change: Most will likely believe Bitcoin is bad for the climate, but with some precise points it's pretty easy to logically argue it's far better than most other industries. Why Climate Change Activists Should Love Bitcoin
Helps The Poor: Allows the poor, oppressed and those without formal ID (billions) to have a bank account. One that's not hyperinflated away, seized by a dictator or confiscated off them. This in itself is literally life saving for billions
Helps Protect Protesters, Journalists & Other Vulnerable Minorities: Bitcoin cannot be stopped or confiscated. From vital journalists to sex workers to protestors or LGBTQ that are deplatformed it offers a globally recognised and growing way to continue their life. It also allows women in countries that financially oppress them to hold an untouchable financial asset

There's more such as the defunding of forever wars, the stopping of the debasement of billions of people's savings, helping to stabilize the grid and encourage renewables, preventing of methane flaring into the atmosphere, giving another financial option that increases privacy and so on.

All of these points should resonate strongly with the stereotypical "lefty". You just have to hone your sales pitch 😉

54 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby 19 Oct 2023

I like the human rights angle. Let's be honest most progressives are just in it for the virtue signaling and moral authority.

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

I forgot to mention that he is the same friend who inspired the Survivor Pool! He got me into his version about 5 years ago. If I get him interested in SN, it will be because of your sports meta.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 20 Oct 2023

Maybe he will join our pool next year.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 20 Oct 2023

I think there's a real chance. He is a big nfl fan.

120 sats \ 1 reply \ @sb 19 Oct 2023

I have also noticed that the "CFA + French colonialism" angle is the most visceral for people, perhaps because colonialism is increasingly seen as "an evil of past empires", so they tend to internalize it more strongly. People are good, deep down, and these stories of financial repression resonate regardless of political inclination :)

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Agree 100%.

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @justBrian 19 Oct 2023

awesome, glad to hear this ! I live in the pacific northwest and have very little luck. I'll be curious to hear more.

79 sats \ 4 replies \ @elmartus 19 Oct 2023

Bitcoin is for everybody, not for conservatives. Bitcoin doesn't care about your political views, gender, race, or anything. Bitcoin is the ultimate inclusion.

Bitcoin is so great because it is the union of left and right. It is supported by the community of nodes ("left") and miners seeking personal gain ("right").

11 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

I agree to the extent that bitcoin is for everyone, and it certainly doesn't give a damn about left/right distinctions. I don't think I agree with your node/miner characterization.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @elmartus 20 Oct 2023

Let's say it's the perfect mix of altruism and self interest:

Bitcoin needs both nodes and miners. Miners are there for their own personal gain. Nodes yield no personal economic benefit but are vital to the community as a whole, hence more altruistic. Bitcoin needs both aspects to succeed, it's not just self interest or just selfless altruism. It's both. Yin and yang. Left and right.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kristapsk 20 Oct 2023

Nodes yield no personal economic benefit but are vital to the community as a whole, hence more altruistic.

No, you run node to not trust but verify about transactions (mainly incoming) of your own wallet. Also, privacy, as it's very hard to not leak data about different addresses in your wallet to a third parties with light client (except if using client side block filtering in a way Wasabi Wallet does it). It should not be altruistic. If you just run node but does not use it for anything yourself, it doesn't help Bitcoin network much.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elmartus 20 Oct 2023

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46 sats \ 5 replies \ @BITC0IN 19 Oct 2023

A Progressive's Case for Bitcoin book is a good gift option maybe

1 sat \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Yes. I thought of that, but I feel like it would be overkill until I'm more certain of his interest.

154 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 19 Oct 2023

If you haven't read it, I think you should, to gain insights on how to talk to them too."

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

I listened to the author on WBD, but I can't seem to bring myself to read the whole book. I can only take progressive apologists in small doses!

558 sats \ 1 reply \ @amaluenda 19 Oct 2023

The author Jason Maier of the book "A Progressive's Case for Bitcoin: A Path Toward a More Just, Equitable, and Peaceful World" was at PubKey 2 months ago. Here's the recording, you might find some tips....

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

Thanks! I'm going to send him the link.

54 sats \ 3 replies \ @BitcoinFoqus 19 Oct 2023

There is nothing more communist than seizing the means of production (of money) so he might like that. But seriously congrats on reaching across the aisle. You are better than me at finding common ground with folks who are not aligned with yourself politically.

131 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

No congratulations are in order since I have accomplished nothing. You raise a good point about the means of production. The Marx/Engels "withering of the state" concept, though a fantasy, presents some common ground too. Most modern U.S. progressives, unfortunately, worship the state and its power.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinFoqus 20 Oct 2023

The worship of the state is an odd one. I have a friend who is one of these statist types and even something simple like a statement that the internet and it’s benefits are the result of private companies and entrepreneurs taking risk results is an argument that the internet couldn’t exist without the state. Frustrating.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 20 Oct 2023

I know I'm generalizing and stereotyping people, but I'll continue for argument's sake. My fellow US boomers on the left seem to have statist tendencies, but the 18-35 crowd have what I would call an anarcho-syndicalist bent. I find much more common ground with some young people on the left.

165 sats \ 0 replies \ @The_Daniel 19 Oct 2023

Send them to the Progressive Bitcoiner podcast. They interview people across the political spectrum talking about bitcoin aligns with lefty values.

This year they've had Lyn Alden, Mike Brock, Anita Posch, Peter McCormack, Jason Maier, Jameson Lopp and David Paterson just to name a few guests.

https://progressivebitcoiner.com

53 sats \ 1 reply \ @birdeye21 20 Oct 2023

Only lefty friend i really have is REALLY lefty...he holds bitcoin on robinhood but thinks the government will shut it down

not sure where to begin lol

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kristapsk 20 Oct 2023

Start by telling him that it isn't Bitcoin that he holds on Robinhood. Not your keys, not your coins!

34 sats \ 2 replies \ @carlosfandango 19 Oct 2023

Thank you for sharing. Interesting to see how this plays out. Your friend may even thank you…. eventually.

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

He's honestly more open minded than most people I know on either side of the aisle.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @carlosfandango 19 Oct 2023

We need more people like this in the world. And definitely more people like this in Bitcoin.

In any discussion if you are secure in your position you should be able to listen to another and contemplate it like adults. And if you don’t agree you can agree to disagree and still be friends.

34 sats \ 1 reply \ @nikotsla 19 Oct 2023

One at a time, good job @siggy47 ... I like the Charity angle because you can follow up asking... "If we pay taxes... why we need charity?"

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2023

33 sats \ 4 replies \ @amaluenda 19 Oct 2023

When you're at PubKey, let your friend observe how you pay the tab via Lightning with tip already included. It's private as cash but digitally without any middleman.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

He'll like it better if I'm treating. The cheap bastard. Maybe you can help me @amaluenda. We'll script a plan.

133 sats \ 1 reply \ @amaluenda 19 Oct 2023

It's gonna be fun scripting a plan like in the The Lebowski Brothers. I don't know where I'm going with this but I just had so much laughs reading that article of yours.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 19 Oct 2023

I think that Lebowski event was once in a lifetime, but who knows? I was kidding about scripting. My friend is a bright guy who would see through that. We'll just hang out and wing it. I have to pick the right night.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @southside263 19 Oct 2023

LOL

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitapp132 19 Oct 2023 freebie

Very nice

28 sats \ 12 replies \ @Zepasta 19 Oct 2023

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100 sats \ 7 replies \ @kristapsk 19 Oct 2023

I also think so. But, then again, there are people like Ben Arc, who is communist, but builds Bitcoin stuff.

100 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford 19 Oct 2023

What? He calls himself communist? Or others call him that?

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @kristapsk 19 Oct 2023

His Twitter bio literally says - "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" .

Also there was interview with him about topic by Peter McCormack - Bitcoin: A View From The Left with Ben Arc.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 19 Oct 2023

I've heard the interview. He's a left wing guy for sure. Maybe a Marxist? Honestly, I get along better with these types of folks than I do die hard Republican or Democrats. Thanks

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @kristapsk 19 Oct 2023

I talked with him about the topic during BHB. He says that communism isn't bad, Stalinism is bad.

In any case I have big respect for him for all he is doing with Bitcoin (and now also Nostr).

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 19 Oct 2023

Thanks, I've talked with folks with a similar view. Really can't wrap my head around why they aren't just anarchists but I've always enjoyed the discussion with folks like this. Mostly because I think we share a lot of common ground with my issues with corporatism/fascism. I have heterodox views and I find it fascinating to talk with someone else that does as well.

And I know the first anarchists where from the left. Rothbard didn't invent it :)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 20 Oct 2023

I think anarchism just has a bad rep

Funnily, far left is also anarchist territory, at least here in the EU :)

That's how the circles closes ...

I think it was @DarthCoin who explained that anarchism doesn't mean without rules, it just means without rulers.

That's when I started to like anarchism.

edit:

And I know the first anarchists where from the left. Rothbard didn't invent it :)

Oh, you mentioned that part already :)

view replies

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @Haths 20 Oct 2023

lol what the fuck, man?

This is precisely why you don’t see many progressive voices in these internet spaces. Because they are populated with mouth-breathers who think like this.

If you genuinely believe this, then you are trapped in a bubble and need to take a long stare in the mirror to figure out who hoodwinked you.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 20 Oct 2023

For real, what does Far-leftism stand for? Larger government (powerful rulers), Socialism/Communism, big tech censorship and anti-freedom of speech, social media restrictions, reduced individual freedoms (due all the things i mentioned)-

On the other hand, Bitcoin represents decentralization, with no involvement of government or banks, advocating for anti-censorship and more personal freedom. Nostr is also aligned with the idea of countering big-tech and social media censorships.

It's fascinating how all these concepts intertwine, isn't it?

Your comment is rude and dumb.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 20 Oct 2023

I would consider myself to have been "far left" before 2020. Additionally, I think "far left" in European standards is extreme far left in America - or such far left doesn't even exist there. I think everything you guys are doing across the pond is right wing for us here, lol

But I was interested in bitcoin nonetheless.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jem 19 Oct 2023

Bitcoin will be successful because, by design, it blends strong self-interest incentives with broad positive side-effects. That spans the entire empathy spectrum.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @POTUS 20 Oct 2023

Dont