jb55: "This will likely be the last year of damus" \ stacker news ~nostr

jb55: "This will likely be the last year of damus"primal.net/e/note1l2s7wyqg5xz7ke6t20p03t9awk629utr6wxjjmg7k4cqr0eflrdql5p5ke

4432 sats \ 67 comments \ @ek 28 Dec 2023 nostr

This will likely be the last year of damus. Will try my best to make this thing sustainable, but nostr clients don’t make money and I once funding runs dry its over as I can only burn saving for so long. Glad I was able to help play a small part in this regardless of what happens. Going to give it my all next year to try to keep the dream alive. Thanks for coming along for the ride ✌️

Is there no way for nostr clients to make money?

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343 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b 28 Dec 2023

I have more faith in Will than he does. If he wants it to work he will find a way. If he needs help he's too famous to not get the help he needs.

nostr clients don’t make money

Browsers didn't make money once. Mozilla had $500m in revenue in 2020.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orange_crush 6 Mar

Mozilla doesn't host all the traffic. Damus.io relay is the problem. Clients need to get out of free relay mindset.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @031ef7d322 28 Dec 2023

Browsers didn't make money once. Mozilla had $500m in revenue in 2020.

Of that nearly-half billion, 88% was from search engine royalties.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 4 Jan

Yep, which is ultimately ads. And for Nostr client to be funded through ads, it will require a lot more active users.

408 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiracDelta 28 Dec 2023

Is that a counter-argument? Seems like a statement in agreement that is very bullish from my perspective!

I just looked up Google's revenue, and WOW! $280 billion dollars in 2022! That's a lot of upside for Nostr.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 28 Dec 2023

That's amazing, isn't it?!

The only point I'm trying to make is that business models require as much if not more creativity than product design does. Lemons don't make themselves into lemonade.

1893 sats \ 4 replies \ @bataroot 28 Dec 2023

The biggest challenge, IMHO, is to convince users that there are no free lunches and that the hard work put into their tools needs to be rewarded somehow or you end up being the product of a couple of monopolistic companies.

The switch is very hard, but some are trying to do it, Kagi in the search engine space comes to mind.

Also, with Nostr, let's not repeat the narrative mistakes that lightning did:

it's free or very cheap
look at me, streaming sats, like there is no consequences on the infrastructure...

Some lightning companies have learnt from this, and now you see the real price, required to support and innovate in the space, emerging (ACINQ and Phoenix seem to have understood that)

As Bitcoiners, we need to support producers with real value transfers. So, pay for your tools, pay for your networks, generate value to kickstart and maintain a new circular economy, if not we are just LARPing like the normies in the mainstream system we hate.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @gd 28 Dec 2023

I could not agree more with this. We need to build an economy here. To do so we need buyers and sellers of value inside our economic system.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @itsrealfake 29 Dec 2023

pay for your tools

Yes.

What's the necessary skill-set to identify ways for open protocol businesses to make money?

228 sats \ 1 reply \ @bataroot 30 Dec 2023

Same skill-set as for any business endeavor (for example, Protonmail's or Mullvad's businesses are based on an open protocol, they seem to be doing OK). At minimum, you need a vision, the right people, data to help you monitor your progress and manage your costs, while being ultra-focused on your target users and how the solutions you provide can generate cash flow for your business.

As @Natalia mentioned somewhere, it's all about small incremental experiments, and survival. It's not easy, stressful, but probably the best way to feel alive and contribute the changes you want to see in the world, without asking for permission.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 30 Dec 2023

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136 sats \ 1 reply \ @sebastix 28 Dec 2023

Hmmm, you only need 1000 true fans? https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/

I think Damus needs to downscale first and then try to find a sweetspot to be sustainable with their true fans.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 4 Jan

I think this is great idea. I would love to see this tried.

267 sats \ 4 replies \ @Natalia 28 Dec 2023

not using Damus myself, but I'm really curious the cost of running it, it seems the main costs are devs and infra?

why not come up with solutions to solve this problem instead of being so negative - I mean why waste the power of the Internet and magic internet money if that's really your dream - I'd f*cking try EVERYTHING to keep it alive.

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @orthwyrm 28 Dec 2023

I'd f*cking try EVERYTHING to keep it alive.

What makes you think he hasn't?

78 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 28 Dec 2023

maybe he did, and I hope he keeps trying:)!

199 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

why not come up with solutions to solve this problem in stead of being so negative - I mean why waste the power of the Internet and magic internet money if that's really your dream - I'd f*cking try EVERYTHING to keep it alive.

I love your energy @Natalia. I did not expect any other reply from you regarding this, lol :)

And I agree! But maybe @jb55 is just burned out or something. No idea what's going on behind the scenes.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 28 Dec 2023

The art of problem-solving 👀 understanding the main problems, then finding solutions by keeping trying and be patient.

I assumed it's the cost in this case, so break it down then you need to find out how to cover them first without doing anything unethical to users, then you slowly graduate from that and do small experiments to try to make money in a healthy and long-term way ( keep the ones that work and eliminate the ones that don't or you don't like it, it's a process ), and you can only figure it out by trying not being sad or negative, and if this is what you really want, maybe the whole world would come to help you in different ways.

193 sats \ 1 reply \ @b17c59874d 28 Dec 2023 freebie

What I replied to the post:

"Here are a few things that come to mind that may help!

Getting sustainable/consistent income:

Have a dialogue that pops up once after installation, that allows users to opt-in to zap-splits, so that every time someone zaps a post, Damus gets a %
A "Damus+"/"Damus Pro" etc paid subscription tier with extra features
Turn amazon/walmart/etc links in posts into referral links, and have that be opt-in of course.

As for lowering expenses, it would be totally reasonable to turn the Damus relay into a PurplePages style contact-list relay meant only to bootstrap gossip discovery of other users relays. There can be a second full fledged Damus relay that subscribers to Damus+ get access to. As it is, the Damus relay shoulders way too much of the load."

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

Welcome to SN! :)

Have a dialogue that pops up once after installation, that allows users to opt-in to zap-splits, so that every time someone zaps a post, Damus gets a %

Turn amazon/walmart/etc links in posts into referral links, and have that be opt-in of course.

I think that these are optional might become a problem afaict. People can already "opt-in" to donate to Damus development, no? Do not enough people donate? If so, why not?

Have a dialogue that pops up once after installation, that allows users to opt-in to zap-splits, so that every time someone zaps a post, Damus gets a %

But I think something like Damus+ with extra features sounds good. It's win-win - like V4V.

As for lowering expenses, it would be totally reasonable to turn the Damus relay into a PurplePages style contact-list relay meant only to bootstrap gossip discovery of other users relays. There can be a second full fledged Damus relay that subscribers to Damus+ get access to. As it is, the Damus relay shoulders way too much of the load.

I would be interested how much the infra currently costs. Is this disclosed somewhere?

Basically, I am trying to answer this question: How much budget does Damus need? How much is missing?

659 sats \ 0 replies \ @roytheholographicuniverse 28 Dec 2023

This is a wild post on multiple fronts. 1. Will is an exceptional builder who has created something of immense value. If he wants to keep damus going, he absolutely can IF he decides he wants to. 2. If you're going to claim to give it your all as a founder, then figuring out how to capitalize becomes a vital part of that equation. An easily accessible avenue is venture capital. VC money is out there (see primal), and no, it's not too late to take money, so there is no excuse for lack of sustainability. Hivemind (@MaxAWebster) is the leading investor in nostr projects, and the fund has been fully embraced by the nostr community. 3. The "Jack told me not to take VC money" argument wins him zero sympathy points. Jack's a good dude but he doesn't run damus. 4. Any good entrepreneur knows that so much can change in a year. Hell, shit can change on a dime in a matter of days as a startup founder/entrepreneur. Crazy to prognosticate possible doom a year out. 5. Where there's a Will (pun intended), there's a way.

121 sats \ 9 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

Is there no way for nostr clients to make money?

It is possible with subscription plans, ads and other things.

Have option integrate AI for offer new services.

Anyway, this depend each Nostr client and business model

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @elvismercury 28 Dec 2023

What would that mean in this context?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

Each Nostr client have his own business model for revenue.

I don't know what will happen on Damus :)

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 28 Dec 2023

I'm curious what "true fans" would look like on one nostr client vs another. The idea makes sense for a band, or a writer. How to differentiate this type of software in a way that people would feel passionate about it?

Kind of like an Emacs vs vim thing.

228 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 28 Dec 2023

Kind of like an Emacs vs vim thing.

I think this is right, but harder to measure for Damus because there's relatively little UX lock-in and the only product on offer is UX.

IMHO True fans are easiest to measure as paying customers. SN has a wip true fan metric of daily spenders (and we are well off kk's 1000).

If I were Will, I'd attempt to find a complementary service Damus could provide. Something like Obsidian's Sync comes to mind - run me a personal relay and make my "work" durable and available.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

I'm curious what "true fans" would look like on one nostr client vs another. The idea makes sense for a band, or a writer. How to differentiate this type of software in a way that people would feel passionate about it?

Marketing, community and show why your Nostr client is unique and different from others.

I have already tested several Nostr Clients over these months, and each one has its own differences.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

It is possible with subscription plans,

Subscriptions might make sense like Mutiny is doing (/cc @benthecarman @TonyGiorgio) but I am not sure if this is sustainable long-term since afaik, it relies on people wanting to give value back. They don't have to give value back by paying for a subscription. But maybe I am wrong and this doesn't matter much if V4V really catches on.

ads

I think ads are out of the question since that means you need to invade the privacy of your users (so you can give them targeted ads) which is a thing we wanted to move away from afaik. Or do you mean ads like we run on SN which are integrated into the platform and directly pay the users? But not sure how this would work on nostr.

I could see how nostr clients run ads but this would mean that these clients are very popular (that's why companies want to run ads on that client). But either

a) this means nostr is centralizing since there are only few popular clients or b) users will just move to a different client without ads

Haven't thought much about this though.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

I could see how nostr clients run ads but this would mean that these clients are very popular (that's why companies want to run ads on that client). But either a) this means nostr is centralizing since there are only few popular clients b) users will just move to a different client without ads Haven't thought much about this though.

Nostr clients need think in good ways for revenue

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

you need to invade the privacy of your users (so you can give them targeted ads) which is a thing we wanted to move away from afaik.

Make sense

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rsync25 28 Dec 2023

. Or do you mean ads like we run on SN which are integrated into the platform and directly pay the users? But not sure how this would work on nostr.

Yes, kind SN or something similar

377 sats \ 6 replies \ @niftynei 28 Dec 2023

kinda ironic that primal went the VC route but Damus didn’t b/c jack told jb55 not to take VC money

(image from the ten31 portfolio page)

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

I don't know much about VC stuff so this might be an ignorant question:

Is it too late now to take VC funding? Can't he at least say: "Hey, I changed my mind, do you still want to give me money?" If not, why not? Or is this not how this works for some reason? Since no one wants to invest in someone who changes his mind "just like that" on a topic like this?

ok, this might have been multiple ignorant questions, lol

858 sats \ 4 replies \ @niftynei 28 Dec 2023

I have no idea how VC funding works, but I’d imagine it’s a different skillset than building code.

At the end of the day, a VC is going to want to see a business model though. Question is it better for him to build out the business model now without funding and hope it takes off fast enough to pay bills before his runway ends? Really sucks that Apple rugged his zap splits model, iiuc that was working great.

Now he has to launch an Android app and hope that hits cashflow velocity before the year ends 🤷

1007 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 28 Dec 2023

fwiw

I have no idea how VC funding works

selling an investment is like selling anything else, ie know what you're selling and who you're selling it to and find the right "who" for the "what" you're selling

At the end of the day, a VC is going to want to see a business model though.

It depends on the business and the VC. At this "seed" stage though, good VC's know that all business models are theoretical and good VC's are usually only concerned about meta-things like the founding team's resourcefulness, vision, etc. They eventually expect you to produce a return but they expressly have a very long time horizon so it suffices to display a mind for how that might eventually happen.

IMHO it's a red flag if a founder stubbornly forecasts a business model before product-market-fit or if an investor expects such clairvoyance.

948 sats \ 0 replies \ @dk 29 Dec 2023

well said! 👏

also, I’ll add that I see a lot of people say things like “VCs all do/believe/behave like X”.

It’d be like saying “all python developers believe X”!

VC is just a capital/partnership structure. People organize those structures and deploy the tool of capital in vastly different ways with vastly different strategies. There are also different definitions of “success” based on what outcomes/timeframes are modeled for the specific risk/return goals. These are often closely coupled to fund size, but not exclusively.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @phaedrus 4 Jan

Exactly, even if he takes VC money, Damus will eventually need to make profit. VC people are not charity, they want their money back:-)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

I have no idea how VC funding works

Ah, oh. I see I am still assuming too much even though I almost got fired once because I assumed too much, lol

Question is it better for him to build out the business model now without funding and hope it takes off fast enough to pay bills before his runway ends? Really sucks that Apple rugged his zap splits model, iiuc that was working great.

Now he has to launch an Android app and hope that hits cashflow velocity before the year ends 🤷

Mhh, I see. Yeah, Apple is becoming even more and more a walled garden. Feels like this is part of their business model: to stay the most walled garden ever created.

But I think it's not necessarily a bad business model. Just not one I personally would like to buy into as a customer who likes too much to tinker with stuff.

iiuc

til

26 sats \ 1 reply \ @kemaly 28 Dec 2023

They have to consider subscriptions. It will create a steady income stream. Ads will ruin the things.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @ladyluck 28 Dec 2023

First @DarthCoin's No SN Posts pledge then Damus is about to leave! This is one challenging 24hrs for me

21 sats \ 5 replies \ @davidw 28 Dec 2023

People would easily pay fees for extra filters in their feed/algorithm, profile switching or analytics on most engaging posts/times/content.

Could give purchasers a 6 month head start before rolling them into the free tier, if concerns over utility vs competing clients.

15 sats \ 4 replies \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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36 sats \ 3 replies \ @davidw 28 Dec 2023

He can let them take their cut if he wishes. He’s already had to KYC to list the app on the store. Or could build a simple sign-up site, like Zapplepay.

If he really wants funds, he’ll find the way. Yes it takes dev time, but it’s not as hard as it sounds to monetise software. Especially not when your livelihood and passion product depends on it.

36 sats \ 2 replies \ @davidw 28 Dec 2023

The high time preference is grants, charity or VC money, until the next time the subject comes up once more. Need to see more bootstrapped success stories. Damus would be a great case study if became a profitable company in its own right, particularly on a protocol with such huge potential.

Revenue today could feasibly 10x in 12 months on sheer network adoption alone.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @davidw 28 Dec 2023

I get the sentiment, but we're talking about the same thing in this context.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 28 Dec 2023

Sad to see but monetizing the “free” internet still has yet to be solved. Until it is nostr clients and relays will continue to struggle. No one wants to pay for anything aka the free rider problem.

26 sats \ 4 replies \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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15 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

But it's optional, right?

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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50 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

I wonder how many people are like you

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eobard 28 Dec 2023

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51 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 28 Dec 2023

The Apple crack down on zaps really hurt them. They could have charged a zap fee and I think the lack of zapping has stagnated the user growth and adoption.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiracDelta 28 Dec 2023

There is a way for Nostr clients/relays to make money as I have suggested for over a year, but it is not by being Twitter-like clients. Even Twitter doesn't make much money, lol, so that should have been kind of obvious.

Of course, if I had a perfect understanding of the concept, I might have simply done it myself, but here are my imperfectly compiled thoughts on the subject: https://heaviside.substack.com/p/nostrato-how-relational-contracts

As well as an earlier post that is related: https://heaviside.substack.com/p/bitcoin-defunds-the-state-nostr-actually

tl;dr the way Nostr adoption will happen first is with the emergence of peer-to-peer marketplace apps with the two following properties: 1) geographically localized (i.e. not Ebay); 2) a real time or near real time component (i.e. not Craigslist).

126 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

I like this idea since it sounds similar to how zapping on SN works:

One thought I had to fund apps was to take a small portion of total value zapped through it. Basically zap splits. Each time a zap is sent take X% for the dev team to pay its bills including salary. Haven't implemented but just a thought. Prism API may help with speed of transactions if alot. Sure Will has thought of this before. Why not feasible? Not enough value being moved via zaps to make it work?

-- note17vy5lz98t6uqwxdwhze990gslyh54d2g4vezpf40f402f2ynw8nq8yau6p

update: lol, that's apparently how you get followers on nostr:

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orange_crush 6 Mar

Damus had first mover advantage but Primal overtook them quickly on features. Will did a great job promoting the nostr to Apple users, bootstrapping features, and running an open source project, but that's how they run Damus, like an open source project not a business. Maybe opensats will support him for life, but he needs shut down subsidized "free" Damus relay and allow a free market for relays to develop.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orthzar 29 Dec 2023

but nostr clients don’t make money

Who was it who said that some VC tried to invest in Nostr per se, but they left when they figured out that there's nothing to monetize about Nostr per se? It's like trying to monetize IPv4 or HTTP; you can't monetize open protocols, because they are open.

If you want to make money related to Nostr, your only option is to use Nostr to make money.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @lunanto 28 Dec 2023

Bye bye Damus, Nostr still stand strong because of your contribution and I hope you survive this spell

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @CUMDUMPSTER 28 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @south_korea_ln 28 Dec 2023

Has he shared any other project he'll be working on? And how/if he'll stay involved in Nostr development?

5 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek OP 28 Dec 2023

Not that I am aware of. This is a note from 7 hours ago. He might share more over time.