SN Foundry- Weekly Discussion \ stacker news ~meta

3273 sats \ 43 comments \ @grayruby 28 Dec 2023 meta

zaps forwarded to @south_korea_ln (50%)

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Hey Territory Founders,

Inspired by this post #368635 by @south_korea_ln I thought this week's discussion could surround the recent surge of sat farmers on the site.

I have definitely noticed this in the sports territory. Some users posting very similar posts multiple times a day without context or engaging with the broader community. They are clearly trying to farm sats. I don't know if they are AI generated posts or not.

A way to combat this would be to increase the cost of posting but that may deter honest actors from posting as well.

My approach to dealing with these users was to first ignore their posts. Initially I was engaging and zapping every post made in the territory but this just encouraged farming posts, so I stopped doing that and focus now on zapping and engaging with posts that add value to the territory. Then I began downzapping the farming posts. And finally in one of my own posts I called out the user and stated that although I don't want to censor or mute them I would be downzapping all of their content. This seemed to have an impact and the posts have pretty much ceased.

What tactics are you taking in your territories to combat farming posts? It would be great to hear others ideas and strategies and get a discussion going.

Cheers, GR

(50% of zaps will to @south_korea_ln. The other 50% will be donated to rewards)

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130 sats \ 2 replies \ @nout 29 Dec 2023

The framework that I like to think in is "desirables vs undesirables":

If the user action is desirable, the user should be rewarded sats.
If the users gets value from the content, they should be nudged to voluntarily pay sats for it.
If the action is undesirable it should cost sats.

Ideally it should be up to the territory founder to decide what is desirable for territory (in the bounds of what is desirable for SN).

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 29 Dec 2023

If the user action is desirable, the user should be rewarded sats.

Ah, that's a nice way to put it. That explains why I am refunding people who post the content I want to see in ~crypto in different words.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

Good framework

644 sats \ 4 replies \ @kytt 28 Dec 2023

I really think in that case, the owner should just increase the fee. Let's say someone made 1 post per day with a cost of 100 sats.

At the current sats/USD (~2348), that would end up with a final monthly cost of ~3100 sats or $1.34 USD/month.

Most people aren't posting that often. I personally think posting fees should be higher than that. If a user wants to complain about that cost, then they can stop posting or create better quality content to increase their ROI.

70 sats \ 0 replies \ @needcreations_ 28 Dec 2023

If a user wants to complain about that cost, then they can stop posting or create better quality content to increase their ROI.

Or they can create their own territory!

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby OP 28 Dec 2023

I have mine set at 21 sats but meta which I posted this in is 100 sats. I think 100 sats might deter some people but not many.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @kytt 28 Dec 2023

I think 100 sats might deter some people but not many.

Which means it would be working exactly as intended.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

Fair point. Someone else made a point about raising posting fee to root out bad actors and then slowly lowering it after they give up posting in the territory. Thought that might be a viable strategy as well. Move it up to 100 sats and if you have no sats farmers for a week then drop it down a bit.

562 sats \ 9 replies \ @needcreations_ 28 Dec 2023

Interesting. I did not consider them to be bots at first, but now that I think of it, a few recent posts in my territory ~education have been very random....and not necessarily adding any value at all. Makes sense that they're farming sats, as I've been zapping them too. But now I will stop. And I do agree that we should all be raising our cost to post. Value for value. It will ensure that all posts are meaningful, and not spam/farming. I've kept ~polls at 250 sats from the start, and users still post to it...and many times they are earning WAY more than 250 sats back from zaps of their post. So it's worth it for them. Don't be shy about raising the cost to post in your territory. It's your territory and you pay for it. If there's a market for your territory, it will come.

109 sats \ 8 replies \ @grayruby OP 28 Dec 2023

Agree. It's a tough balance. You want people to post and I don't want to deter anyone from posting because the fee is too high but also making it high enough that it doesn't make sense for bot posts because they end up spending more than they get back.

70 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 29 Dec 2023

You want people to post and I don't want to deter anyone from posting because the fee is too high

I mentioned here that my approach is to refund the people who post content you want to see. Mentioning this here since I am not sure if the two of you are aware of this approach.

I can't say anything regarding the effectiveness of this approach yet though. But I think it's at least having an impact on the territory funding:

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @needcreations_ 29 Dec 2023

ok so you set cost to post in ~crypto at 256 sats and you're saying you refund them by zapping their post at least 256 sats if you like the post?

Also, I have a question about the territory revenue...what is the 50% taken from? - just posts? or posts + zaps to replies, etc?

20 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 29 Dec 2023

ok so you set cost to post in ~crypto at 256 sats and you're saying you refund them by zapping their post at least 256 sats if you like the post?

Yep. And with "I like the post" I mean "this post belongs here".

Also, I have a question about the territory revenue...what is the 50% taken from? - just posts? or posts + zaps to replies, etc?

Posting costs and 10% of every zap. Right @k00b?

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @needcreations_ 29 Dec 2023

50% of posting costs and 50% of 10% of each zap?

40 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 29 Dec 2023

Ah, yes, that was written badly.

Revenue = 100% of posting costs and 10% of each zap.

And you as the founder get 50% of that and 50% go to rewards.

So yes to this:

50% of posting costs and 50% of 10% of each zap?

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @needcreations_ 29 Dec 2023

ok, thanks for clarifying. And out of curiosity, before the launch of territories, did SN take 10% of the zaps to users?

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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @gmd 29 Dec 2023

Thinking ahead a few generations of game theory... I worry that the only way to make this work is if it near impossible / difficult to earn significant sats on this website, and instead just making everything pay-to-post, with nominal sat upvotes.

Maybe it's just my AI doomerism but I worry they will only continue to proliferate and get more sophisticated in gaming the system.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinOutdoors 29 Dec 2023

I have some random spam posts in my territory ~Outdoors as well. I have mine set at 50 sats.

The tip about not just zapping everything is a good idea. POW will be promoted in my territory.

What do you think @NEED_btc_

50 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 29 Dec 2023

In ~crypto, I have the problem that people seem to think it's about everything around cryptocurrencies. It can also be about cryptocurrencies (since they have "crypto" in their name) but I want to establish that territory to mainly be about cryptography. So if you have something to say regarding the cryptography part of cryptocurrencies, you're welcome.

But I don't consider this to be the territory where to post about other aspects of these coins (like "crypto ETFs"; where "crypto" is used the most or "crypto politics").

So this problem isn't necessarily related to bots or AI generated posts. It's more a problem about people mistaking one place for another. However, I still mentioned this even though this weekly post is about "sat farmers" because I am also trying to tackle this with increasing posting fees:

I have raised posting costs to ~~100~~ 256 sats. If I think your post belongs here, I will give you back ~~100~~ 256 sats. If not, thanks for funding this territory :)

So my way to not deter "honest actors" (in my case, people who realize ~crypto is about cryptography) is to refund the posting fees. Have you (or other people in this thread) already considered doing this?

Regarding this:

Then I began downzapping the farming posts. And finally in one of my own posts I called out the user and stated that although I don't want to censor or mute them I would be downzapping all of their content. This seemed to have an impact and the posts have pretty much ceased.

I am really hesitant to do this because of the censorship concerns (as you mentioned yourself). Even though you could say that "my territory, my rules", I want to be welcoming and have an open mind. I might feel different about obvious sat farming though. But even there, I am not sure how sure I need to be to actively defend against such behavior.

So enforcing my views too much, is something I am actively trying to avoid. I hope that over time, this approach of rewarding the users which post the content I want to see will be enough. But I don't know yet. Let's see.

324 sats \ 5 replies \ @nout 31 Dec 2023

What about renaming to ~cryptography ?

20 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 31 Dec 2023

That's not an option, it was named ~crypto on purpose. People will learn, it will just take time.

Also see this thread for why I think renaming is not an option.

Make Crypto Cryptography Again!

-- @calle, here

498 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby OP 31 Dec 2023

This is where a pinned post in the territory would come in handy.

This territory is for Crypto(graphy) not "crypto"

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 31 Dec 2023

I agree but I also updated the territory description

434 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby OP 31 Dec 2023

No one reads that. Eventually territories should have banners and bios that are static at the top of the page like a social media account. I mentioned to k00b he said he would like to offer that functionality eventually but you guys need another person.

I created a little logo for mine. Would be cool if that was visible all the time when people entered the territory and not just from drop down menu.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 31 Dec 2023

No one reads that.

Yeah, it's too hidden currently.

Eventually territories should have banners and bios that are static at the top of the page like a social media account.

I had the idea to show the territory description in the post form at least. That shouldn't be too much work. I think that would solve a similar need as your banner idea.

60 sats \ 2 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 28 Dec 2023

It's tough to tell honestly. Like as an example, the daily discussion thread in music is where I'd like any and all individual tracks people want to post to be posted. But I'm not going to stop someone posting it individually to the sub. It could be bots sat farming. But it could be someone who just prefers to drop a track and walk off not wanting to use the daily discussion thread (I may not understand the logic, but they do them.) I think I'd struggle to pick out the difference between a sat farming bot and a person honestly and I don't want to discourage people from posting by accusing them of being sat farmers. So for now... It's just a wait and see approach from me.

71 sats \ 1 reply \ @needcreations_ 28 Dec 2023

One way to tell is to increase the cost to post. Sure it might deter some people, but it'll definitely deter the bots....just saying

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 28 Dec 2023

Might be worth looking into for sure.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 28 Dec 2023

I am not having the issue (yet?), but I do like your approach

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Book_It 29 Dec 2023

Increase fees if you feel your territory is being abused. Do welcome same posts in different territories if looking for different opinions. Mine is more of a odd one so dont expect much anyway. Also I am trying not to be the sole poster in a starting mine as to not force discussion haha.

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheWildHustle 29 Dec 2023

Just started the Nix_OS territory. I'd increase the fee to 150 if I start seeing bots, and decrease it a bit every day until you see bots again. I'm thinking it would help determine the cost of spam prevention.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

Good strategy

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @antic 28 Dec 2023

Ignoring is a good call. I’ve been sick so haven’t been super active but I figure spam has a cost and ultimately it will lose out. That’s part of the beauty of the concept.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

Agreed

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @AGORA 28 Dec 2023

Wish to have this issue in the ~Agora and find the way to solve it 🤔 Curret cost is 2 sats... new territory, so no much activity anyway!

This is the way... and also love the Let the sats do the moderation. approach

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @kdnolan 29 Dec 2023

I haven't come across this I have to say..

What's the point in them posting the same thing multiple times? Aren't they just cannibalizing their own content? Seems crazy

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

It’s not exactly the same post but they are very similar. In sports every post was pretty much the same, a headline and then a picture and that’s it.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln fwd 29 Dec 2023

Thanks for forwarding the sats to me. They'll be wisely spent tipping good content ;)

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @cleaningup12 28 Dec 2023

Unless you raised the fee to post in all areas but kept one area completely free

You could see who and what people are posting and most likely the bots would congregate there

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 29 Dec 2023

Good point

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeroldabnercollins5m 29 Dec 2023

I've noticed the surge of sat farmers in the sports territory. Ignoring and downzapping seems effective.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeroldabnercollins5m 29 Dec 2023

Hey Territory Founders, I've noticed a surge of sat farmers in the sports territory. Any strategies to combat this? -GR