this is just confusing. having the same symbol for different denominations will cause lots of issues. this is ripe for abuse. what if something in the future, for some reason, really costs 10,000 bitcoin? what if something is 20 sats? even the dollar system has a different symbol for cents, though i feel i usually see that represented as just partial dollars. what a waste of hype
According to this logic adding a second layer to bitcoin would be shitcoin mentality, too ;-)
The decimal point will never disappear.
There is already a decimal point for satoshi as fees in lightning are calculated with milisatoshi precision and it is displayed with base satoshi (see LND).
The higher the bitcoin price, the less practical it becomes. Why would anyone use decimals for anything when 1 BTC = $1M?
There is already a decimal point for satoshi as fees in lightning are calculated with milisatoshi precision and it is displayed with base satoshi (see LND).
Yup this is just stupid. We get it, not many people (yet) understand or even know what a sat is but we already have:
bitcoin the token
Bitcoin the network
Bitcoin the Blockchain
Having Bitcoin (for sats) just makes this EVEN worse
It's not even a problem that needs fixing! People aren't stupid. They are capable of understanding dollars and cents, bitcoin and sats
So there's a different symbol for sats vs bitcoin, there's a different symbol for cents too: ¢ or ₵ or (mostly) c. C'est la vie. Pretty sure there's more important things to do than change a 15 year old standard that creates horrendous confusion and requires all software/hardware builders to redo millions of lines of code 🙄
They are capable of understanding dollars and cents, bitcoin and sats
Ask random people on the streets how many people recognize the word "sats", then do the same with ₿
redo millions of lines of code
using ₿ as the sats symbol is actually a very simple UI change. instead of displaying "sats", display ₿. that's it. it took only one dev and a few hours to get it on Bitkit
Ask random people on the streets how many people recognize the word "sats", then do the same with ₿
We said they were capable of understanding dollars and cents and thus, also understanding bitcoin and sats. Not that regular Joe has heard of sats. We know very few people have heard of / know about sats, but that'll change as adoption increases. People didn't know what the @ symbol was in 1999... but that changed
using ₿ as the sats symbol is actually a very simple UI change. instead of displaying "sats", display ₿. that's it. it took only one dev and a few hours to get it on Bitkit
That's your code base that's obviously not super complex or old. Many are old / complex or simply just not updated or maintained as well. Then there's all the books, the written articles (like the dozens on our site) endless podcasts, YouTube videos etc etc etc.
I’m not sure if you expected that tweet to make this concept less confusing, but implying that people will “know” is a bad assumption.
The purpose of the symbol is to enhance the number with all the information required to clearly communicate the price/value.
Not only does using one symbol for multiple prices cause unnecessary confusion, it’s a regression in user experience from the sat symbol.
This gets even worse when you add the (even more) confusion between wallets that’s been introduced here.
If your premise for this is that people will “know” how much I’m charging (which is an incredibly faulty premise) then, in my opinion it is actually even better with no symbol at all for BTC/sats/mBTC.
but implying that people will “know” is a bad assumption
They'll learn when they send 10000 sats from one wallet and receive ₿10000 in another.
Not only does using one symbol for multiple prices
Very few wallets use ₿ as a currency symbol. They mostly display "BTC". Besides, decimals are impractical, so we don't need ₿ as a currency symbol for it. Sats is the standard.
it’s a regression in user experience from the sat symbol.
The vast majority of wallets allow users to see the value of their balance in fiat.
Isn’t this like Calorie vs calorie. Usually, when you talk about “calories” in food, technically you’re talking about 1000 calories or kilocalories or kcal but no one does that.
Focus on the real work of merits that can drive more real value to Bitcoin, this can be a fiat/bitcoin job. And then the sats symbol arguement will just fall into place
Social consensus is exactly the barrier Bitcoin needs to overcome, everything that helps us get there is worth the discussion.
The definition of one bitcoin as 100m sats is the original mistake here.
Calling 100m of the smallest unit of Bitcoin a satoshi and the smallest unit itself a bitcoin might have been a better choice, or maybe just don't call 100m of the smallest unit anything since we already have names for quantities...
i can get behind this symbol, i also think the unit bias of large numbers is really important to making people excited to hold bitcoin.
nobody wants to give up their life savings just to acquire a small fraction of something… but give them hundreds, thousands, or even millions of sats and they’ll feel richer than ever.
We don't need to dump from $43,854.85 to $0.0004. we can continue using BTC for price. As long as ₿1 remains under $0.01, it'll be easier to price bitcoin in BTC instead of sats. When ₿1 crosses $0.01, we'll no longer be concerned about pricing bitcoin in fiat.
Oh so this symbol no longer reads as "bitcoin"? I see.
people will organically start calling sats "bitcoin" if it ever gets adopted, but for now, people will send 10000 sats from WoS and receive ₿10000 on Bitkit. can't get much simpler than that!
For this to go all the way we'll need to start calling sats->bitcoin IMO.
you're onto something! 🤠 there are only integers in the Bitcoin protocol, not decimals. we don't need decimals other than for tracking the Bitcoin price...
That will probably be the natural outcome imo. At first people will call it 'sats', but once normies adopt Bitcoin, the term used will gravitate to 'bitcoin' or 'bitcoins'.
First, "ten thousand sats", at least until people are ready to do the sensible thing and just call them bitcoin too. It's not like "sats" actually has any useful purpose.
BTC really needs to overcome this unit bias thing.
I think the BTC price ticker which uses the price for a full bitcoin (100M sats) has more impact on this than a currency symbol. Imo, the solution is to make more people aware of Moscow Time.
I think this introduces more problems than it solves to be honest.
“But it sounds weird to call it ‘sats‘ and use the ₿ symbol”
Many have tried to come up with a currency symbol that resembles the word ‘sats‘, but none reached a consensus.
The verdict is in: it‘s either ₿ or none at all. There‘s no second ₿est.
I'll stick with the High Voltage emoji ⚡ since I don't understand why such an attitude should result in consensus if all others before "failed". Also, I am not aware of any currency symbol that tried to resemble the word "sats". ₿ is trying to resemble the word "bitcoin" though. I am only aware of the lightning and the kebab. They are not resembling the word "sats", are they?
Can't unsee since someone mentioned this. Also, not sure how else to describe this symbol? "the one that looks like a kebab" always worked fine so far haha
₿ is pretty much just Bitcoin's logo. No one uses it as a currency symbol (and no one needs it to since we don't need decimals). Most wallets use "BTC" instead. Not much of a change in this aspect!
1 satoshi is written as 1 ₿, pronounced as "1 satoshi".
Current 1 BTC would be: 100M ₿, pronounced as "hundred million satoshis".
We don't refer to bitcoins the money as "bitcoins" anymore, only Bitcoin the network. Less confusion long term.
No decimals, no 2 types (btc, sat) of denominations, just ₿, pronounced as "satoshis".
₿ does look like the "b" from bitcoin, but it's not a problem that it's actually pronounced "satoshi" because $ has nothing to do with the "dollar" either.
I think this is a reasonable idea, but we're so used to SAT and to the kebab to a smaller degree that many us will resist the change. Also, a handful of people will misunderstand this to be "printing" more bitcoin.
If we adopt this, we need a specific date when most sites switches over, ex. Jan 3, 2025.
Temporarily we could do this to be super clear: 1,000 ₿ (SAT). Then after a year drop (SAT).
If we adopt this, we need a specific date when most sites switches over, ex. Jan 3, 2025.
I don't think we need such coordination (though it'd be ideal, sure). People will send ₿10000 from one wallet and receive 10000 sats on another. Doesn't have to be much more complicated than this.
Unit bias is FIAT mentality (also common scammy rhetoric used by tokens eg. safemoon)
₿ is already assigned to Bitcoin
Why is there a small faction of allegedly Bitcoiners attempting to erase Satoshi from bitcoin? He did a lot for us, so it's only fair that we honor his legacy every time we spend bitcoin.
I suggest staying focused on scaling and building on Bitcoin, rather than politics.
Talk to normies and you'll see unit bias is very real.
₿ is on the Bitcoin logo, but few use it as a currency symbol. Wallets display 'BTC' instead.
"If Satoshi wanted the currency units named after him, he would simply have done it. I think this behavior seems creepy and is harmful to Bitcoin." — gmax, 2019
The BITCOIN logo is used everywhere and there are 21 million of them as cap. The Genesis Block was chosen as the G is the 7th letter. It's also biblical which Nakamoto means in Japanese, "from the book". 3 is a sacred number as masculine, feminine and child or third eye. 3 * 7 = 21 and 2+1 = 3 it's recursive.
Sats is the basic unit because Sat means truth. This is synchromysticism but also not incorrect.
Satoshi is the Awakened Person. Not an accident in pseudo anonymous choice. The man, woman or group behind the persona is not the persona. Satoshi left after the tools were in place and others carried the torch.
It's regressive to redefine what takes a little research in knowledge. The basic unit has been named and in L2 lightning the basic unit is mSats or 1000 mSats = 1 sat. Or 2.1 quintillion parts to the Bitcoin network.
i thought i was deep into the rabbit hole, but i'm clearly nowhere near the bottom. impressive, congrats!
The basic unit has been named
There's no need to rename sats. We can still call them sats, just like we call it "dollars" and represent it with $. Sats are Bitcoin, so it deserves to be represented by the only currency symbol the world ever needs, designed by Satoshi himself!
We need to educate individuals with unit biases, as this flawed thinking could negatively impact other aspects.
Correct, it's the Bitcoin logo, not the sats logo.
So, I stand corrected. You keep saying the proposal is to use ₿ as the symbol but sats as name. In reality, it's more of a covert redenomination. Also i disagree with gmax.
sats doesn't need a logo, only a currency symbol. decimals don't need a currency symbol.
i personally don't necessarily agree with gmax, just dropped it here because it seemed relevant in the context. i agree we should honor satoshi's legacy, i just don't think we need another symbol for sats other than ₿ to do so, though
fwiw i agree that scaling and building (which we're doing with Bitkit) on Bitcoin is more important than politics. 🤝
As with many basic concepts people will work hard trying to redefine it instead of learning the basic concept. The truth is already here but people will work hard to obscure it, ignore it or their ego will not accept it.
$ also carries such a negative connotation that represents the opposite of everything Bitcoin stands for. why would we want to associate sats pristine brand image with that?
I think the whole idea is to replace dollars, it would be a funny bit of irony if we replaced the dollar symbols representation with sats. Mission accomplished
We are building a new monetary system! Wouldn’t it be way more symbolic to let $ become a relic from the past? I'd prefer if my grandkids only learned about the dollar sign in museums.
Today, 1 satoshi buys 0,22 CRC, 0,36 ARS, and 0,39 NGN. Costa Rica, Argentina, and Nigeria also happen to be countries with growing Bitcoin adoption. A $10000 price tag could mean sats, CRC, ARS, or NGN. In countries like Colombia, where 1 sat parity has been reached (1 sat = 1,68 COP), it's even harder. As we approach hyperbitcoinization, the $ will grow more ambiguous, not less
I think in Bitcoin. I don't need a special symbol for sats. It took me about two weeks to mathematically map it out but I did. People always want to dumb shit down for other people but the fact is that the people who use money will always understand price discovery. It's natural to the human mind. Even people who are innumerate and illiterate have a basic understanding of price discovery.
The sinister part is the front running by fractional reserve banking and money printing via fiat currency.
Using the Bitcoin logo for sats is dumb.
It's like those who want the United States to use metric for building materials. Carpenters understand imperial system because it's useful. Metric is just digital. Engineers use digital feet. But imperial measurement goes back to the pyramids! It's a reflection of astrological observation. The word carpenter means chariot builder. They used the wheel, compass, square, plumb bob and Miles ( 1000 double paces) to build. Carpenters were also masons. The wheel was the super tool!
I was under impression that Bitkit had a separate account for LN and onchain. I tried to verify this, but the software required me to agree to "terms and conditions". Realizing that Bitkit was not built for cypherpunks, I uninstalled it.
Splicing could be a solution. Pheonix seems to manage a unified balance well using splicing. But seems the folks at Synonym Software Ltd. prefer to write satsymbol campaigns, terms and conditions, and blog posts that create problems instead of writing code that solves problems.
every wallet with embedded LSPs will eventually have terms and conditions. the largest and most reliable LSPs will become companies, and opening a channel is a service being provided by a company, after all!
₿ the change! Contribute to FOSS! How can Synonym help LDK get splicing?
Why wouldn't a company focus everything on the biggest problem? Why would any employee settle to work on anything less than the biggest problem at the company?
If the biggest problem is trying not to get sued or finding the right words or phrasing for your legal contracts and terms for compliance, sorry, you're doing it wrong. What would satoshi do?
we never need to talk about cents, they're worthless! Bitcoin is deflationary, sats will be worth a lot and we'll never talk in wholecoins, so it deserves to be represented by a well-recognized currency symbol (designed by Satoshi himself!).
we'll ever need ₿ as a currency symbol if not for sats because Bitcoin is deflationary.
why would you need to display amounts in decimals when you can buy cars for 0.00051392 BTC? sats are all you need! it'll make less and less sense to display fractional amounts as the Bitcoin price increases.
no one uses ¢ today because cents are worthless. no one will need ₿ for decimals because 1 BTC will be worth a lot. poetic!
I get the issue and the proposal, it has merits. But changing things now will only add more confusion. Lets ₿ be for Bitcoin (as an idealistic symbol) and agree on something else for sats.
Using the same symbol for both (or change course midway) will only create a mess.
interesting, thanks for the recommendation! gonna look it up.
still, most people didn't read atlas shrugged. the meaning of $ is whatever people perceive it to be (and today that's a pretty greedy, blood-tainted, blood-dripping symbol)
One closing thought: I think there is something cathartic and powerful about reclaiming a symbol though. Leaving something behind and abandoning it just because it has a bloody history only ensures that it will be revisited in the future as we have seen time and time again. On the other hand, taking it and revitalising it with goodness means the original thing might lose that meaning and gain a new one.
This is all just speculation to be honest I am not even sure we need a symbol :). The word "sats" is enough in a lot of cases.
One closing thought: I think there is something cathartic and powerful about reclaiming a symbol though. Leaving something behind and abandoning it just because it has a bloody history only ensures that it will be revisited in the future as we have seen time and time again. On the other hand, taking it and revitalizing it with goodness means the original thing might lose that meaning and gain a new one.
That's indeed very interesting to think of. Thanks a lot for sharing!
if you get charged ₿10000 for a coffee, will you be confused if the cost you half a billion dollars? there's way less room for confusion than it initially looks!
Pennies have a cent symbol in many different currencies. This is normal, so no one confuses the bigger with the smaller amounts.
This whole argument sounds like you don't believe bitcoin will be important enough one day for humanity to learn the smaller amounts' symbol. That's kinda sad.
we're actually so bullish that we believe 1 BTC will be worth millions, and few will be wholecoiners. no one will need to learn decimals at that point.
we want future bitcoiners to look at their balances and feel like they're making progress by saving ₿ 20 000, not that they're poor because they only have 0.0002 BTC.
https://satsymbol.com is the better option.
The only argument against that one is that it somehow looks like the symbol of a famous shitcoin? Since when does Bitcoin care about what shitcoins do?
Anyhow, there are more important things to focus on than a stupid symbol.
Nope, I advocate for no change to the recognizable symbol - for the same reasons the site advocates for change. Too much brand recognition to change it. Introduce a new symbol for sats that leverages the existing brand recognition and goes along with the same theme. Picrel
In some countries, the prices of goods in shops are written like $134. However, it does not refer to US dollar or any other dolar-named currency at all. Let's leave it up to shops and people.
For me, it is very confusing to use ₿ for sats. I like more the kebab symbol. Anyway, it does not really matter 😉.
Fortunately, Bitcoin itself doesnt care. It just includes more blocks into the chain in the mean time. And from this point of view, this is more a PR of Bitkit. Keep calm and stay hodling.
And to think I got all excited for this because I felt like someone put some serious thought/effort into coming up with a less confusing symbol. Someone flog me.
"If Satoshi wanted the currency units named after him, he would simply have done it. I think this behaviour seems creepy and is harmful to Bitcoin." — gmax, 2019
1₿ = 1₿,1sat = 1satas always has been. now1₿ = 1sat?₿be for Bitcoin (as an idealistic symbol) and agree on something else forsats.How about branding millibit and microbit for now ?
sat𝟾̷ | sat₈
STAY HUMBLE AND BAG BITS