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A recent post showed the distribution of btc hash power globally, and one of the comments on that post suggested that the amount of hashpower in China, despite that country's anti-btc policies, was evidence for btc's unstoppability. (This current post was originally a reply to that comment but grew in scope enough that I'm hoping it might kick off a broader discussion.)
I've repeatedly heard arguments along the lines of China couldn't even ban btc, look how futile it is, therefore btc has achieved escape velocity and my reaction is always bafflement. Do people really not remember the twentieth century? Do people not remember what happens when a nation-state is fully motivated and believes its survival to be at stake?
The patty cake of the modern era, with government's public and theatrical concern for people's feelings and rights, is not the historical norm. Getting wound around the axle with endless debates about whether it's actually okay to arrest people for stealing is a historical aberration. When powerful groups are really motivated, the gloves come off. And so, are we comfortable in saying that China has really wanted to stop btc? Or has it only wanted to stop certain people from using it for capital flight, but certain other people, perhaps regime-insiders, get a free pass?
I'm not nitpicking. There's a big difference between a country motivated by survival and one putting on a public spectacle to justify other actions.
For my part, I posit that we have not yet seen a world where nation-states view btc as a serious threat; and once we move into that phase, we will see, in earnest, how effectual they can be when they want to be -- it will be the era of internments, of massive violation of rights, of propaganda, of night-time door knockings. The 'opposition' that we've seen thus far will look like a child's tea party when this new wave comes. Btc may even still not be stopped, but as Kevin Kelly showed, there's a lot of wiggle room in what it means to stop something.
This is, of course, a hypothesis. I could be wrong, and hope I am. But I welcome other perspectives.
Your point of view reminds me of what I was thinking a week or so ago when the US mining surveys were issued. The writing is on the wall. I can't help thinking "you ain't seen nothing yet" . I got some pushback for saying mining companies should leave. Many people thought it was worthwhile to fight. As you point out, the rule of law can be completely ignored at the regime's whim. I think of Hayek's sly roundabout language and apply it to leaving jurisdictions BEFORE the shooting starts. Decentralization in all respects is necessary. Live to fight another day.
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I totally agree. Why stay and fight when you can leave and fight? Don't we want to reward friendly jurisdictions and punish hostile ones?
These people want wealth and don't care how they get it. If "allowing" bitcoin makes them wealthier, then they'll allow it and we won't have to fight.
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216 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 22 Feb
These exact same fights are going to happen in AI....and its entirely possible these fights force pushback from the states.
Texas (and other energy rich states) may pass state laws that nullify or otherwise ignore fed rules. If enough states join a coalition (like what has happen with the border issue), the feds will be forced to back down.
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I'm with you. We have yet to see state level opposition. True opposition. I hope we never see it. I think we will. I think we will win. We haven't won yet.
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As Kratter said, we're in a race against time to prevent a war over the matter. Only when enough people are onboarded and integrated into owning and using Bitcoin in their daily lives does the government face a huge obstacle in making Bitcoin usage untenable. If that threshold is not breached soon, we may see some very dark times ahead.
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You make a solid point about the potential for governments to crack down harder on Bitcoin. While it's true that China's hash power dominance hasn't stopped Bitcoin, it's naive to think governments couldn't escalate their efforts. We haven't seen a full-on assault yet, and when motivated, states can be ruthless.
The decentralization of Bitcoin helps, but it's no silver bullet against determined nation-states. However, Bitcoin's global nature means it could become a geopolitical battleground. Some countries might clamp down, while others embrace it.
On the flip side, Bitcoin's growing adoption by mainstream players adds a layer of protection. They have a vested interest in its success and could push back against excessive regulation.
While governments could escalate their crackdowns, Bitcoin's decentralized nature and global adoption offer hope for its resilience. But it's a complex game with uncertain outcomes.
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However, Bitcoin's global nature means it could become a geopolitical battleground. Some countries might clamp down, while others embrace it.
This is a good theoretical argument. It will be interesting to see it manifest for real, when there are real consequences. The nature of the countries that flaunt the mandates from the US and other rich nations will have a lot to do with how this plays out, I think.
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374 sats \ 10 replies \ @Fabs 22 Feb
I think what people also like to skip over, is the fact that "they" don't have to stop Bitcoin as a protocol or as a network; they simply have to make it that hard and that risky to own BTC or even be exposed to BTC, that it's not worth it anymore to the masses, slashing the interest - and thus, most likely demand - for Bitcoin, which would seal it's fate as a nerd-collectible.
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That will never happen. Nation states either adopted gun powder, or were conquered by those that did. Nation states developed nuclear weapons, or are forever pillaged by those that have them. Bitcoin is technology. Those that choose to limit its use will cease to be relevant, and at some point cease to exist.
Once you discover fire, you can choose not to use it, but that doesn’t un-discover it.
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The only thing I'm positive is, that everything can happen.
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Ok I can agree with you there. I should have been more nuanced. Governments may put friction in place, but that won’t stop successful people from using it.
The Church tried, but couldn’t stop Venetian proto-banks from using the number 0.
The Church burned printing presses through out Europe. People made more, and the second most printed book was how to make a printing press. Then the knowledge mind virus destroyed the Church’s power, that had lasted centuries.
Can you think of a time in history when technology, and the people who wanted it, were separated?
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Can you think of a time in history when technology, and the people who wanted it, were separated?
This is a good way to put it, I think. But here's a better way:
When people wanted something, and powerful others didn't want them to have it, how long did it take before everyone had what they wanted, and what carnage came along the way?
Btc will always exist in some form. If you'd be perfectly happy if it were to be exchangeable at a (current) fiat price of $1 dollar and then hovered around that value for a decade, then I am fully in your camp that everything will be fine.
But that's not my definition of 'fine.'
A lot of people (including me) would be sad if it lost so much of its current value; it would constitute a drastic collapse of savings and is contrary to the usual store-of-value narrative. That's the kind of outcome that is very much within the reach of a concerted and powerful countervailing multi-governmental effort, imo.
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Only some failure of the technology itself would result in the entire network value of BTC being less than the wealth of one well-off person.
Government action will not have this result…if anything it will make BTC even more valuable.
They demonetized gold, but were never able to destroy it. People who have gold have been well protected.
Bitcoin is anti fragile. Whatever the attack makes it stronger: we will continue to print books on how to make printing presses, until they can no longer burn enough to matter.
Governments that embrace it will create a brain drain on the ones that fight it.
It is self defeating: The EU against fossil fuels? Let’s see how that plays out. If there are some people that want to starve and freeze to death, there are plenty more that aren’t going to just lay down and die.
Look at Nigeria: let’s see how many stop using BTC there.
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 23 Feb
If states keep debasing their fiat, people will do whatever it takes to get some bitcoin. Historically people have risked everything to avoid theft by debasement. I can't think of any reason it will be any different this time.
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I'm with you most of the way, but I don't think its fate would be sealed as solely a nerd-collectible. I do, however, think that its destiny as money for the world could be delayed twenty years, easy, and maybe more than that.
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"fringe-currency" was what I meant, couldn't come up with the translation, thus I went with "nerd-collectible" 🌞
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As a “fringe currency” does it not still do everything we hoped? It’s working now…and it’s as anti fragile as anything.
Yes, some people are brainwashed and will continue being slaves. We can’t save everyone.
I can’t do anything about North Koreans, or Chinese, or New York, Seattle, and San Fran. All I can do is live as free as I can and protect my family from those who would enslave them.
There are probably 10 million people with most of their wealth in this system. That number grows every year, and never shrinks.
No amount of force can take it. Government can try, and people slip away, out of reach, like water. The sooner that day comes, that will be the suddenly part of “gradually then suddenly.” For many, that would be the biggest endorsement to get BTC any way possible, for any price.
When more restrictions are proposed on gun ownership, more first time buyers get guns than ever. Gun sales during Obama’s second term were record breaking, and most of those were first time gun owners.
I’ll make a prediction, if Biden gets a second term, that those years will break the Obama records for guns sold.
Governments restricting what people want, only makes them want it more, or ask the question, why? When they ask the question, they can then see the answer, then buy the thing that the slave master doesn’t want them to have.
The only way to avoid that is if they see bitcoin as a path forward for themselves. If they see it as a threat, then it will be as you describe.
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It made me think of when China wanted to extend lockdowns and then people got out on the streets and they backed down. If they want to squash this they need to do it sooner than later. The larger the adoption the more social unrest it will cause. But one country trying to squash it now could also backfire as it would be the best advertisment at a time when trust in governments is at its lowest.
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It makes me think of when all those people protested in Tiananmen Square and showed the communists what was what; and then, after it had gone on a while, the government slaughtered a bunch of them, and then consolidated power for 35 more years, and counting.
But I'm with you that adoption -- real, consequential adoption -- is a countervailing force to all that. Hope it comes.
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When the gloves come off for real, that’s when they admit they’ve already lost. That will be the hockey stick moment for Bitcoin adoption.
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Yes, this is true. This is why I believe western democracies are far more powerful that other States. They don't have to take the gloves off. The people believe in we.
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Mandibles
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People really should read it.
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I agree with most of what you said but you're overlooking the incentive bitcoin gives nations to put it in their treasury. As it grows more valuable it becomes impossible to overlook as an alternative to gold... And it's one that many big countries have lots of already, confiscated from scammers.
Once they start adding it to their treasury the game changes massively. They'll be incentivized to protect bitcoin or else shoot themselves in the foot, financially.
El Salvador was the 1st to add BTC as an official treasury asset and plenty others are in a gray area there like Bhutan & Georgia. It's just a domino progression from here, as the price grows more and more governments will be forced to do the same until they all have. Game theory demands this.
So the only question I worry about is weather or not we'll see BTC as a treasury asset in the US before some kind of authoritarian wave passes through US politics, creating a 6102 moment. Maybe even then all our digital asset SuperPACs would stop that from happening outright, but it's still a race nonetheless.
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Maybe at the institutional level, but if you have self custody, the cost of a government confiscation scheme at the individual level would be high. Not only in resources, but the body count would forever destroy any kind of legitimacy. It would be the last days of the regime.
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Could be, but I've been surprised by what does, and doesn't destroy legitimacy. I mean, we interned Japanese citizens, spied on the whole country, enslaved the blacks, and committed genocide against the natives. Legitimacy turns out to be a pretty squishy idea that exists in the eye of the beholder.
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Btc may even still not be stopped.
I totally agree with this point. Since its inception, banks, governments and corporations have been trying hard to stop it. But all in vain. They can't do it.
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stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.