Only Cowboys Get Rewards: and other ideas \ stacker news ~meta

Only Cowboys Get Rewards: and other ideas

1450 sats \ 82 comments \ @Undisciplined 14 May meta

I noticed that only 100 people are getting daily rewards. That was a new feature introduced in the second month of Million Sat Madness, as I recall.

The purpose, as explained to me by @ek, is to prune the left tail of the distribution and give more rewards to our more substantial contributors. That's great, but 100 is completely arbitrary, so I think we can do better.

Why not make use of our beloved cowboy hats and reserve daily rewards for cowboys?

If it starts seeming like too many people are drawing rewards, make cowboy hats harder to find.

Other Ideas

Include referrals in the rewards calculation, maybe as daily activity of your referred stackers
Reward downzapping bad content, as well as zapping top content
Reward SN donations
Randomize the parameters in the rewards calculation
Daily rewards have to be accepted within 24 hours or they go back in the pool
Factor engagement into top post rankings
Include all-time stacker value in the rewards calculation

That's it for now. I don't necessarily endorse all of these ideas, but I've been mulling them over and I'm curious what other stackers think.

Are there tweaks to the rewards system that you'd like to see?

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244 sats \ 4 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

I think we want to get the flywheel started with new users and not exclude them from rewards but I like the idea. Maybe a new user can get rewards for the first few days without being a cowboy but then they need to step up their game in order to be eligible for continued rewards.

It is similar to the way shakepay works with their rewards. If I refer someone they can get 42 sats anytime I or anyone else in our shake squad uses a shakepay visa debit card but there are certain usage thresholds they need to meet to keep getting rewards.

50 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

That's a good point. They aren't likely to make the top 100 without a cowboy hat either, though.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

16 out of the current top 100 are currently hatless. Not sure about any of the hiding stackers but I doubt it so let's go with 15% of reward earners are non cowboys. I don't know what percentage of those would be newer users vs limited users vs cheapskates.

71 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

Maybe it should be that once you've found a cowboy hat, you only get rewards while wearing one. That way new users don't get punished for not having figured it out yet.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

Nice. Good idea.

102 sats \ 4 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 May

Include referrals in the rewards calculation, maybe as daily activity of your referred stackers

Reward downzapping bad content, ~~as well as zapping top content~~

These two parameters are easily manipulated, so I think it's best not to include them in the calculations. I particularly liked points 3 and 5.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I'm not sure downzapping bad content is anymore manipulable than zapping good content and I think we need to incentivize it.

You're probably right about my specific suggestion regarding referrals, but there might be something in that vein that would work.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 May

The issue I see with downzapping is that you might not actually be downvoting bad content, but rather content you simply don't like. However, if downzapping has a limited weight in the calculation of rewards, I think it could be a useful feature.

69 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I'm imagining it working just like zapping top content works. You'd only get credit for downzapping content that other high trust people have downzapped.

It's basically a way to pay for community policing, which I think is an important element of organic content curation.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 May

Ah, that makes much more sense now. I hadn't considered it from that perspective. Thanks for clarifying.

102 sats \ 3 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 May

Interesting thoughts.

Include all-time stacker value in the rewards calculation

My fear would be it really skewing things against new stackers..

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

It could be weighted to be a small contributor to total rewards. I like the idea of incentivizing people to build long-term social capital on here.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @carlosfandango 14 May

Agreed - and it is a good way to reward long-term, consistent Stackers over time. But ‘small contributor’ is probably the right phrase.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

Broadly, I like there being more elements that go into rewards, because I think that makes them harder to game.

Anything we want more of we should try to get into the rewards algorithm and I think we want more people who make contributions consistently.

79 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 14 May

Love the buffet of ideas. I think if we wish to reward more Stackers, we got to come up with more sats somehow. The 100th awardee gets about 150 sats - hardly enough to induce a behavioural change.

I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but I think the top 21 cowboys should be held to higher standards. Zap at least 300 sats per day to keep your cowboy hat. Which isn’t too tough for us established Stackers. Channel the additional 200 sats X 21 = 4200 sats to the rewards pool

I also suggest that the Stackers in the Leaderboard be banded. The top 5 Stackers for the day get a flat rate of 6969 sats each; the next 5 Stackers get a flat rate of 4242 sats each. Top 11-15th Stacker get 2121 sats each n so on. By trimming the fat at the top, we can make more Stackers feel included.

Switching to another train of thought. There was a period in my life when I cared more about the cowboy hat than the rewards. A reward bonus for Stackers who manage to hold on to their cowboy hats will be nice. Perhaps 10 sats for a Stacker holding it for the 10th day; 69 sats for someone who holds it for 69 consecutive days. We should make greater use of the cowboy hat, I feel.

My two sats’ worth

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I think you could come up with more sats by combining my two cowboy hat ideas:

You need one to get rewards at all
Make cowboy hats harder to get

The idea of having different tiers with different standards is really intriguing, although I think pretty much all of them are zapping at least 300 sats per day. There could be different challenges that change daily for getting into the top 21.

I already made a whole post #383551 about different things to do with cowboy hats, so I didn't want to bring it back up here, but I had also been thinking about those kind of longevity rewards.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 14 May

There could be different challenges that change daily for getting into the top 21.

Oh this sounds fun! Maybe make it a weekly thing because of the cognitive switching costs involved in adapting from one challenge to another haha

85 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

I like all your ideas except one. "Include all-time stacker value in the rewards calculation" This will not give a chance to new stackers,

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

It wouldn’t have to be a huge factor.

As you spend more time here, you might find that the sense of community is really unique. That’s only possible because some stackers created a lot of social capital and I’d like that to be rewarded to some degree.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

Now I understand your point.

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @riberet19 15 May

I like the cowboy hat thing and accepting rewards within 24 hours, sounds fair.

115 sats \ 4 replies \ @davidw 14 May

I actually think the opposite. Would be good to see rewards specifically for non-cowboys some days.

Encourage the n00bs and change the incentives somewhat. I wouldn’t relinquish my hat for rewards but some might. And would mean others (who aren’t regular habitual hat-hoggers) have a shot at the daily top prize occasionally. Instead of seeing the same people hiding up there.

Might even work better than MSM for metrics.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I don't see how incentivizing low engagement is a useful strategy, but I'm all for trying stuff out.

189 sats \ 2 replies \ @davidw 14 May

Not sure that being without a hat should be considered “low engagement”. People dip in and out of products all the time. We should be using the carrot not the stick.

Having rewards favour people with cowboy hats is maintaining the status quo. 80% of people up there already do.

We have to attract people who aren’t posting every day. I’m not saying for every day, but some days may help. Someone who gets an extra 9k sats for having a big day is way more likely to come back and aim to do the same again tomorrow. Rather than seeing an extra 900 sats, given the cowboys above them.

Would love to see people thinking how to grow this community, rather than serving our own interests. We can make this the biggest onramp to bitcoin, if we think more about encouraging new users to form healthy habits. And encourage more long-form content. That’s always been my wish. Otherwise we’re over-gamifying the experience.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

I really like this point. " We can make this the biggest onramp to bitcoin, if we think more about encouraging new users to form healthy "

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I say low-engagement, because not having a hat specifically means you didn't zap people a meaningful amount that day. Since, zapping content creators is what drives SN, it strikes me as an odd choice.

Would love to see people thinking how to grow this community, rather than serving our own interests. We can make this the biggest onramp to bitcoin, if we think more about encouraging new users to form healthy habits.

We're completely aligned on this point.

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @kingzing131 15 May

Imo it should be as neutral as possible. Best posters get SATs zapped.

More zapping posters should get more SATs when they get daily rewards.

I come to the site few times everyday, and see if there's any topic I want to comment or zap.

Having some amount of SATs back help me to do this consistently without needing to feel pressured.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

Pro tip: If you zap more you will get more sats back and you will find a cowboy hat.

There's already a threshold (top 100) and it's actually stricter than my proposal.

69 sats \ 8 replies \ @Hamstr 14 May

@Undisciplined I was able to get daily reward and I recall I wasn't even on the list. So I think it's just arbitrary. You got really great ideas. Thanks for coming up with them.

The only disagreement I have with the one is daily rewards have to be accepted within 24 hours. If a user is contributing, they're logging on, this doesn't seem necessary.

As for Hats, I still haven't even figured out how to keep and maintain it. I've been coming here for a bit over a month everyday and have had my hat stolen, die from thirst and lastly ran out of supply so then I died again.

Why not.. gift our hats to a newbie? until they get a hat?

the number of days you kept it in exchange for sats?

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @oliverweiss 14 May

I still haven't even figured out how to keep and maintain it.

I think it is sufficient to make a single post in a territory with a >100 sats fee daily to keep the hat.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

Snitches get stitches

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

I don't love being required to accept your rewards same day, either. It was just a mechanism I've seen that encourages daily use.

Zap big. Zap often.

42 sats \ 4 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

Any chance they can allow us to modify our hats? I would like mine to be tipped to the side a bit. Everyones is the same lol

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

I’m not sure, but we occasionally have conversations about neat stuff to do with the hats.

I collected some of those ideas in this post #383551

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

Interesting, I will have to look at it. Will they implement any of these ideas?

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

I don’t know. They seem to have some interest in some of them.

I suspect they have bigger fish to fry.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

That could be true. This community is really growing, even since the MM.

69 sats \ 7 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 14 May

I'm not a fan of the cowboy hat thing, since it means someone who isn't able to engage daily (but who engages well when they're here) is penalized. Much as I love SN, I don't like any site that penalizes folks for missing a day (also a problem I have with a lot of freemium games). Losing your hat now just means losing your hat, but if you lose your hat, come back two days later and make a killer post that stacks 10K sats and don't get considered for that day's bonus, that seems kind of disincentivizing.

Maybe adding a few days of grace period, so give someone five days after losing their hat until they can no longer get daily rewards?

I'm not a fan of the 24-hours to accept the rewards for the same reason (but again, a longer period may solve that).

21 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

@davidw made a similar content and it makes me think I might be missing something, or at least that I didn't explain my idea well.

If you aren't here one day, then you aren't getting rewards either way. If you come back and make a great post, and zap other people's stuff, then you'll have a new hat which will make you rewards eligible again.

The only scenario where this seems to matter is if you make good content, but don't zap other stackers. In that scenario, I'm perfectly happy with not getting daily rewards. That person still gets all the zaps from their posts.

42 sats \ 5 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 14 May

Definitely agree about folks who don't zap not getting rewards.

I'm assuming that person coming back and making a great post is also participating in SN by zapping and commenting as well. But I thought that a hat doesn't come until the next day, so after daily rewards?

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 15 May

Pretty much each comment should have a zap, unless it is really in left field, right? Thats how I feel at least.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

Agreed

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

But I thought that a hat doesn't come until the next day, so after daily rewards?

Gotcha, in that case I need to amend my proposal to be that you become rewards eligible once you've earned a cowboy hat, whether or not you have one.

It's been a while, but I recall finding my cowboy hat during the middle of the day.

90 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 14 May

It's been a while, but I recall finding my cowboy hat during the middle of the day.

Yes, this is the case. You immediately receive a hat when you meet the requirements. It shows up as "new" then.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 14 May

Ah, thanks! I hadn't realized it was an insta-get.

42 sats \ 20 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

I leave this without comment

60 sats \ 10 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

0x brought that up in the saloon. What do you think is going on there?

69 sats \ 6 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

I think the reward algo is far too skewed to optimizing for top posts and comments and likely punishes for zapping and commenting on a lot of stuff rather than taking a surgical approach and just focusing on the top few posts of the day.

I understand why it is set up this way. You don’t want people spamming to just get rewards but clearly that’s not what 10, 11, 12 are doing. We are all good stackers.

Btw this is not a complaint. Just evidence that maybe the rewards system does need adjusting.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

Not saying that I am gaming the system, but I think all of us have tried different techniques to see how we go on the leadership board. I still dont understand it. lol

60 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

When we were talking about it, I don't think nullcount had any comments. My guess is that he's instantly zapping a tiny amount to all the likely top posts. It's hard to believe that's enough to generate those rewards.

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby 14 May

Interesting.

30 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

Im just curious how someone gets zapped that much. Not that it isnt right. But also, sometimes its very skewed when you look at spent, commented, and posted. What if there were different categories? Ones for commenters, posters, and stackers who spend or donate the most?

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 15 May

Remember the stacked amount includes their rewards.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

Right, that is true.

reply on another page

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 15 May

How is null doing this? He was 7th with 120 sats or so zapped and one comment. He just zapped 30 more sats and jumped to 6th.

His one comment still has the same amount of zaps and replies as when he was 7th so he jumped a spot by zapping 30 sats to something?

70 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

It's a great question. My thinking now is that he's waiting for k00b or davidw to leave comments (or the other top commenters) and he's zapping those right away. It probably takes many fewer sats to be the top early zapper of top comments than it does for zapping posts.

When we used to get the more detailed rewards breakdowns, I was almost always 2nd or 3rd in comment zapping. Maybe null was first (and doing it much more efficiently than I).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 15 May

deleted by author

71 sats \ 8 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

I am new on this platform. I don't understand how this reward system works. Can anyone tell me something about this? What should be done posts or comments or spending or something else???

53 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby 15 May

It’s based on how your posts and comments rank, who zaps them and how many zaps you get and give.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

Please see screenshot below. Position of two Stackers @nullcount and @davidw . Still confusing.

61 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

Most of us are a bit confused by nullcount’s position.

Davidw on the other hand specializes in making a small number of high quality posts and comments.

The best posts and comments get a disproportionate share of the rewards.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

I think only site developer can solve our problem.

41 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

All you really need to know is that creating and zapping good posts and comments is how rewards are earned.

The site developers pretty regularly adjust the specific rewards formula, but it’s always with the aim of rewarding those behaviors.

72 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

This means there is no fixed formula for it.

61 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

There is, but they experiment with it pretty often.

I think the formula is in the FAQ at the bottom of the page, if you want to see it.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 15 May

Ok. I'll check

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Fabs 14 May

I sure am glad not to be the one that has to decide this stuff... 🤠

Well damn! I only now realized we have a leaderboard featuring a guestimate of daily rewards, that's dope.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

Me too! I love my role of offering unsolicited advice from the sidelines, though.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 14 May

...And I love witnessing it 😈

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @itsrealfake 15 May

Daily rewards have to be accepted within 24 hours or they go back in the pool

Love it

23 sats \ 3 replies \ @Athena 15 May

I don't think it's a good idea. Only cowboys get rewards will create sense of inequality. This place is more fun without so much of conditions. Anyone can lose his hat only in a matter of 1 day, and stopping rewards for him only for this criteria is not a good idea.

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

It's hard to get a meaningful amount of rewards without finding a cowboy hat in the process.

Currently, rewards are arbitrarily limited to the top 100 stackers. I'm not advocating introducing a new element of inequality. I'm saying we should tie rewards eligibility to something meaningful rather than have an arbitrary limit.

There are more than 100 cowboys right now, so my idea actually expands eligibility and therefor reduces the sense of inequality you're concerned about.

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 15 May

I am curious, does anyone know or suspect who the top three are all the time?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

Yes. If you look at the authors of the top posts you can get an idea of who’s missing from the leaderboard.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

What happens if you lose your cowboy hat on purse to gain rewards? Would that game the system too much?

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

I don’t see why that would help you get rewards.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

If you get 15% more for not having a cowboy hat? #539554

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

He was saying that about 15% of rewards recipients don’t have cowboy hats.

There’s no benefit to not having a cowboy hat.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 15 May

oh, I must have read it wrong.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @IgnaciobTato 14 May

It is not a matter of Hat or not (I get them and I lose them all the time). It is a matter of making new channels to find the perfect subject for the topic to post. All fees to post increased a lot as well. Would be nice to be back on old times low fees.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 14 May

You have to take that up with the individual territory owners. It's not a site-wide policy.

Most territories lose money, which is probably the reason some topics aren't covered and is definitely the reason why some have high posting fees.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @karanjajes 15 May

I don't agree with this