Bitcoin, as a bitcoiner, is a really lonely place sometimes \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Bitcoin, as a bitcoiner, is a really lonely place sometimes

10.7k sats \ 31 comments \ @028559d218 29 Sep bitcoin

Bitcoin. Not crypto. Not 'blockchain' technology. Not 'this technology'. Not 'innovation' - at Coinbase or Consensys - although I respect what Coinbase is doing with Lightning now...

Why is this taking so long to get right? Why is it so hard to understand that a 'blockchain' with no nodes and no decentralized users to run them.... is NOT a blockchain. It's a centralized server. While even call it a 'blockchain' at all? A blockchain without decentralized nodes might as well be "run on a 500$ website" (quoting J Song)

How many plebs or pleb-like users run Tether/USDT nodes? How about Tron nodes? Or Cardano nodes? or Algorand or countless other ******** nodes? To say nothing about memecoins or the next pepecoinfrogrocket tokens that are created in significant numbers each day.

The 4th largest token on coinmarketcap is... the BNB token which is a centralized token created by an exchange. Can plebs and users run their own BNB nodes, resist change to the protocol, and make sure it's decentralized? If not it is scandalous... How can an exchange create and run their own tokens, sell other tokens, and avoid conflicts of interest?

And tokens that aren't decentralized, not to mention not proof-of-work can't be:

nation-state resistant
resistant to change or
a good store of value long-term.

A 'blockchain' needs nodes run by many users with diverse incentives... nodes that are the heart of soul of a 'blockchain' and without decentralized nodes and LOTS of them run by fanatical users it's all just a big scam.

How is this a secret somehow - and why are there so few places to spend Bitcoin?

I've got a few sats to spend, I run my own lightning node (LND) it's easy to do and yet... ¯_ (ツ)_/¯ There's Stacker News, Nostr maybe... but it's like hey here's a 10-sat zap for your comment it's really really niche. I rarely (if ever) use Twitter and I don't like it... still why can't Twitter somehow integrate with Lightning?

I would much rather that bitcoin be transactional, with places to spend and earn sats, than the number-go-up. If more people want to use Bitcoin as 'better money' (because it essentially is) especially through lightning then the price will "go up" as there is only so much Bitcoin available. However one has to go out of their way to 'use' Bitcoin right now... and Nostr and SN, as awesome as they are right now are limited/for a very niche audience.

Like a lot of people/hodlers here I've 'made money' owning bitcoin - you know the usual yada yada number-go-up BS but honestly who cares. I refuse to sell any and have NEVER sold a single sat on an exchange. Not one sat. Instead I want to spend it directly and purchase goods and services that I need at good businesses that provide value and yet... ¯_ (ツ)_/¯ Where are the businesses? Businesses period (that provide good value or don't)

I look at btcmap.org when I get a chance to travel are there are very few places in most cities that accept Bitcoin. There are a few exception cities (Big ones in the US and Europe) but even then it's very limited. Or it's like 'Bob's pest control' and if I don't need pest control then ¯_ (ツ)_/¯

Bitcoin is about more than price and lightning works (yes it is NOT perfect but overall it does what's required). I am NOT a technical ie heavy-command line user but even I can monkey-up an LND node no command-line-required and send/receive sats for cheap.

Where is everyone?

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22 sats \ 1 reply \ @Kontext 29 Sep

I hear ya & feel ya. Things are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly. Just a few years ago we didn't even have nostr, SN and Fountain (just to name a few examples) to do V4V properly. Now we're getting there, but we are still on the fringes. The businesses are also coming, but not because fiat businesses are pivoting to Bitcoin. Because Bitcoiners are starting their own. The old system will not fix itself from within. We have the option to outcompete them with a whole new monetary system as the foundation.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

'still on the fringes' yes that's a good way to put it. It feels like things are definitely coming along but on the periphery. Nothing says Bitcoin 'is the new global money' 'pay attention' it takes education to get to that point.

Having said that... MSTR outperforming the rest of the S&P500 certainly helps

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @OT 29 Sep

There's a good point here. Do bitcoiners create competitive products and services? Or are we just waiting for someone to accept our sats?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

At least Proton is accepting it for email and VPNs etc. Plus some of their other services. Bitrefill is pretty good... although buying gift cards for things (everything?) may not be practical yet.

Bitcoin imo is pretty darn competitive... but it really takes education to use to its fullest.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 29 Sep

Maybe on the digital side. But what about the physical? What bitcoiner is going to get into farming when they have enough purchasing power to retire?

I think it's just going to take a long time. If the volatility goes down, people will be less afraid and willing to accept it as a payment.

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @yoshi 29 Sep

Normies in the western world don’t like having to think about things.

Bitcoin will have to chosen for them and they will miss the majority of appreciation along the way sadly.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

I understand. Although it pretty much is right out in the open now though? Although in my opinion twitter doesn't help (that's why I deleted it). Too much noise without really being helpful most of the time.

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave 29 Sep

It's really difficult feeling like I have been given a beautiful solution to most of the problems people talk about... And they just won't listen.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

I rarely if ever mention to Bitcoin to people, outside of 1 or 2 close family members. And they probably think I'm a little crazy LOL.

The few people I mentioned it to in my peer group one said "I don't do that" another laughed One said he bought 10$ of Bitcoin (good for him) but said he liked shiba inu so ¯_ (ツ)_/¯

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 29 Sep

Yeah. I have given up with my closest friends and family. What's funny, is I feel like newer connections I have made are more open to it.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jerrybature 29 Sep

We are living in a time of currency wars. Bitcoin is relatively young compared to fiats. Bitcoin is a form of money designed to be used in an adversarial environments, that's why financial hardship, such as fiat inflation, is the strongest factor that is capable of driving bitcoin adoption.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

People sometimes use the phrase 'financial freedom' in their relationship with bitcoin. However I think this is misleading... because it implies some kind of increase in purchasing power.

I think 'financial freedom' REALLY means freedom, as opposed to repression ie financial repression.

According to wikipedia: Financial repression comprises "policies that result in savers earning returns below the rate of inflation" to allow banks to "provide cheap loans to companies and governments, reducing the burden of repayments."[1] It can be particularly effective at liquidating government debt denominated in domestic currency.

In other words, bitcoin is money free from the state, allowing the individual to spend and save free from the burden and flaws of the State. Bitcoin's inflation rate is separate from that of the state or 'fiat' money, and so allows individuals a savings account that is separate from government debt and inflation. Personally I think most people will figure it out, eventually.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheBTCManual 29 Sep

When I first got in back in 2016 I thought that once Bitcoin reaches 1 trillion and sits above that consistently it would be a big enough market that people would take it seriously and I was wrong, I don't even think at 10 trillion the majority will take it seriously

I do think that Bitcoin hasn't really translated into commerce yet, as part of private company balance sheets to try and sure up your business and remain competitive, i think that's where the growth will come first rather than people spending and natively transacting in Bitcoin.

Its weird for me to even say that because before Saylor this idea didn't even come to mind, so who knows what the next trigger for demand will be?

As for individuals moving to Bitcoin, I don't know how people are oblivious to the pain of dealing with fiat that they're not willing to look for an alternative, nor how much pain they need to feel to get there

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

everywhere there are comments from people saying 'look at the prices' 'they have gone up so much' 'when do they come down'?

a huge number of dollars were printed over the last several years, and while that wasn't the only reason for inflation... people can't make the connection?

bitcoin has the economic properties of gold or real estate - but in monetary form. it would seem logical then that people would transition to it for saving but eventually spending too... you know 'spending those savings' when they need to. and businesses would start offering it as a payment option.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 29 Sep

My cousin was impressed by the speed and low fees of on chain transaction. I didn’t mention lightning or liquid

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave 29 Sep

If you build it, they will come... Or so I have heard. I am so ready. I have felt lonely here for 7 years now.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

Hang in there. It seems like slowly slowly the powers that be are figuring out what Bitcoin is. There is a ways to go but the solution is definitely out there for people.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @mbrochh1 29 Sep

Start a bitcoin maxinalist meetup in your town. You will meet amazing people and it will lead to great opportunities.

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

I'm working on that. I live in a small town right now basically... so I'm not sure there would be a lot of traction. Looking to move, which would definitely help with the loneliness.

There are also, in my opinion, some privacy concerns with this that I haven't fully thought through yet. Not sure I want to be 'the bitcoiner' is a small town LOL

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 29 Sep

Everyone is still catching up. For the normal person, bitcoin is bitcoin. Lightning doesnt mean anything to them.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 29 Sep

it is lonely when the vast majority of people think you are a criminal or a lunatic for even having bitcoin, but we have nostr and places like this to wax lyrical with fellow maxis

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

Bitcoin taken to its logical conclusions... involves some kind of 2nd or 3rd layers like lightning. I don't know it seems logical to me ¯_ (ツ)_/¯

I just hope/wonder that we're on an upward trajectory - I mean I think we are but it's important to discuss the big picture some days.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @AJ1992 29 Sep

Maybe if you realized that Bitcoin wasn't perfect, could learn from some of the other blockchains, and could use some updating especially on the on-chain side, then it wouldn't be so lonely. Bitcoin will never replace fiat when it has flaws that fiat doesn't have and it's benefits most people don't care about.

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 29 Sep

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

maybe monero has some benefits but even then I'm not so sure. The other blockchains don't compare. For money to have value it needs to require energy to create... otherwise it's just back to the same problems as government money/fiat.

The other proofofwork chains do not compare and have not for years (bch/bsv etc)

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @AJ1992 29 Sep

You missed the point or you're truly immersed in the Darth coin cult. Bitcoin IS NOT PERFECT. Thinking it's perfect and acting like it is #1 is a disservice and #2 turns people off when you're trying to orange pill them. There's always room to improve. Why would people want to pay an always changing, high (in comparison to other payment methods or cryptos) fees to transact when they can transact with fiat for free? Why would they want to wait who knows how long or if ever their tx will be confirmed when with other payment methods or cryptos it is confirmed instantly or almost instantly? And don't say lightning solves these issues because lightning has its own issues. Genuine questions.

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

'Other blockchains' with very few exceptions (maybe monero but I'm not even sure about that) go to zero. There is zero reason for them to exist as Bitcoin communicates, sends, receives and stores money already. Blockchains that are proof of stake (most of them) cannot compete with proof of work because it's 'value out of thin air'. There is no energy or material cost to creating their value or network. Look at how ethereum has fared since the 'merge' ie transition to proof of stake. It has been a downward slope, exchange-rate wise relative to Bitcoin ever since.

And yes you are correct Bitcoin is not perfect. But it is by-far-no-comparison the best blockchain. Most security, most decentralization, best transaction finality, best hardware and software wallet support, best price performance (by far), best name brand appeal best regulatory status and clarity everything really of all the PoW (necessary) offerings.

Again Bitcoin is NOT perfect it takes education to use currently with the current UI, the fee rate is variable (as it will be inevitably) but it is the digitization of sound money and nothing comes anywhere close to its network effects.

By using Stacker News you are essentially using lightning. Custodial lightning, non-custodial, semi-custodial (like via Phoenix Wallet which I really like) it's still all lightning. Lightning is REALLY fast and REALLY cheap to use even when on-chain fees are high. For example some stacker very graciously zapped me 10000 sats for this post (for which I'm extremely grateful)... and I withdrew 5000 of those sats for a fee of less than 7 sats? (Which is like half a penny currently).

A friend reached out to me a few moments ago who is trying to fund a lightning channel, get it set up. Sent those same sats to him for a fee of... .47 Sats yes that's half a sat. That's through my OWN lightning node, non-custodial, using a node-out-of-the-box and I am not a technical user.

No other blockchain has those same balance of characteristics and network effects... saying that the others 'compare' in my opinion is intellectually dishonest. This way Bitcoin can be for everyone.

Peer to peer money? Check Long term savings? Check Anonymity (albeit with privacy tools like coinjoins) Very doable Money for wallstreet and the suits? Definitely Good for 'stranded energy' and the economizing of the energy infrastructure? Sure Open source with tons of code review/good developers? Yes also.

What's missing from Bitcoin imo is the education... as to what it is and what real-world problems it solves (monetary debasement and repression) and finally the capitulation from all the other 'cryptos'. I believe they go to zero over the long term because who wants to use the 'second-best' given the choice? Lightning, with education, is crazy fast and can be used crazy-cheap while on-chain is secure enough for billion-dollar hedge funds. It works for everyone.

The 'maximalism' sometimes isn't really well articulated and there's a ton of noise on places like Twitter (stay off it) but there are really meaningful reasons why Bitcoin is the best at what it does. Money for everyone separate from the state for the long term. This was a really long response but you asked for one and I take those responses seriously.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @AJ1992 29 Sep

You fail to realize what will keep people away from Bitcoin. Like the examples Ive given. Also, Litecoin and dash cost less than lightning does in most cases to transact on chain. And as stated, lightning has its own issues when it comes to capacity, inability to find a route, ect. And I love lightning I use it to pay for coffee in person in my city regularly. But you didn't address the fact that why would anyone be inclined to use Bitcoin over fiat. Fiat allows free and instant transactions and layer 1 Bitcoin, which lets be honest is where the large majority of Bitcoin tx's happen, is expensive. (even a dollar is expensive to transact money when there are so many other options that are feeless!) And you guys fail to realize that 95 % of the worlds population isn't concerned with their transactions being anonymous, and even that feature of Bitcoin is pretty.much non existent anymore. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But the big issue I have is you Bitcoin maxi's treat those who are skeptical with this arrogance and disdain and pretty much demand they listen to you and learn without being skeptical and it turns people off. Darth is a great example of this. Anyone who dare disagrees with him on anything Bitcoin related he bullies and treats them like shit. Also, a lot of maxi's have this entitled pompous attitude towards those that aren't interested in Bitcoin and you guys act like they're terrible people and should be shunned. This mentality won't get Bitcoin anywhere. Let's not forget, Satoshi created Bitcoin for everyone, but never states that it should be forced or mandated into universal adoption..

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 29 Sep

Are... you serious? Or is this a kind of comedic sarcasm? Why wouldn't someone want to use Fiat? I mean why wouldn't someone want to use the Mexican Peso? Or the Lebanese Pound? Argentinian Lira?

Lightning works great. Been using it all the time and rarely (although occasionally) have issues.

I respectfully disagree that 'layer 1' bitcoin is expensive. It's like sub-50 cents right now, which as a % of transactions of any reasonable size... is tiny. 50-cents to send a million dollars it's far cheaper, more secure, and more transparent that fiat on the right scale.

Most of the people here, you are correct, are Bitcoin maxis but that's because maxis believe that Bitcoin is the best choice for non-state money that works for everyone. The other coins may have cheap transactions... but that's because the chains are almost completely empty. Noone uses them (relatively speaking). And with a fraction of the hashrate they aren't anywhere near as secure for wall-street size transactions (inevitable for global money too) ie they are not serious blockchains.

Stacker News is all about Bitcoin. You are free to Buy and Hodl Litecoin good luck to you but I really think these issues have been resolved over the last 5-6 years.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @AJ1992 30 Sep

50 cents IS EXPENSIVE to a large majority of people when they can use fiat and pay no fee at all. And you forget, most people do not care about anonymity (even though that feature of Bitcoin is mostly gone anyway unless you take certain inconvenient steps) Most people also do not care about or do not understand that money is controlled by government and it means nothing to them. Bitcoin IMO will remain and is bound to be a novelty, a way to invest, and a way to gamble anonymously (that's what I mostly use cryptocurrency for, to gamble at crypto casinos that are kyc free). And that's not a bad thing, at all. Everything has a purpose in life. But for me, I find it impossible for Bitcoin to ever replace fiat and I think stable coins have a much higher chance of being the future of digital money. Just an opinion .

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 30 Sep

Hi friend. If you don't like bitcoin then just... don't use it.

I think the problem that most people encounter or realize... is which fiat or government money do you use? The biggest one by far is the dollar. And the dollar is fine, for now probably.

However the US government is 35 trillion in debt and adding considerably to that each year - in 10 years the US gov will be over 50 trillion in debt.

At some point it will be mathematically impossible for US bonds to payout to bondholders... holders will want higher interest rates. Which all things being equal will result in lower rates (at the fed) and so more inflation. Using government money is fine, there's absolutely nothing with that as long as, in the long run governments stay solvent. Around the world that doesn't look to be the case so people will want an alternative that offers safety alternatively.

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