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What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Jan. 3rd?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Jan. 3rd?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Jan. 3rd will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Jan. 2nd?
Yes, that's right.
If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Jan. 3rd?
To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:
  1. If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
  2. If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.
If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Jan. 3rd?
  1. When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
  2. When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
What are "Cowboy Credits"?
SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.
So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?
That's right. That's the only difference.
What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Jan. 3rd?
Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.
Even if I don't attach an external wallet?
Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Jan. 3rd are:
  1. Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
  2. Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
    • From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.
Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?
No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.
Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?
No, they do not.
What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Jan. 3rd?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will be non-custodially proxied to your receiving wallet by default. Should you choose, you can disable proxying in your settings and receive sats directly, exposing your receiving node's pubkey.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, or disabled both proxying and direct receives, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
I have more questions about Jan. 3rd. Where can I ask them?
In this thread. Ask me anything.
I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.
Please email me.
I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
In this thread.
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?
We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Jan. 3rd.
What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Jan. 3rd?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.

This is a repost of an earlier announcement. See #731188 and #722833 for previous discussions.
This will reveal that I am a dumbass, but I'm finally making the jump and attempting to set up a lightning node and hook it up to SN like a big boy. I know there are many LN guides about how to do this wrt specific node software (e.g., LND, phoenixd, Core Lightning, et al.) but is there something that explains stuff in a SN-specific way?
For instance, I'm confused why some of the attachment options are unidirectional; I'm confused about what exactly happens in the different use cases. A channel is being opened in this process, but how, and for how much?
I will unravel this eventually, I expect, but I'm guessing there are resources that could accelerate the process. I looked to see if @DarthCoin had anything specific to SN, but no dice. Pointers appreciated.
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There’s a collection of community written guides: #816152
We don’t open channels for you yet.
The UX around attaching blows. As it’s the most nice-to-have thing, we’ve put it off the most.
Consensus right now is that if you’re self-custodial and don’t have a public IP, running Alby Hub on your node and using NWC is the best.
If you’re up for a game of whack a mole, https://coinos.io/ provides a really excellent custodial wallet (you’d use nwc for sending and their Lightning address for receiving).
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but is there something that explains stuff in a SN-specific way?
@supratic created some SN guides, see #817503 or bio
For instance, I'm confused why some of the attachment options are unidirectional
It's either because we haven't implemented the other direction yet or the wallet/protocol doesn't support the other direction. For example, lightning addresses can only be used to receive sats, they can't send sats.
I'm confused about what exactly happens in the different use cases
It shouldn't matter which wallet you attach, we handle them all the same in our code (fetch bolt11 invoice, pay bolt11 invoice). So which wallet you attach only depends on if you have this wallet/protocol/node available. Some require to run a node, some can be used with a custodial service etc.
Most attach a lightning address for receiving and/or use Coinos (custodial) or Alby Hub (free if self-hosted, else 21k sats per month in the cloud) with NWC for send+recv. Keep in mind you can attach multiple wallets for both directions, we will simply fallback to the next wallet if the first one didn't work.
A channel is being opened in this process, but how, and for how much?
Attaching a wallet doesn't open channels, it only gives us a way to communicate with your wallet.
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Thanks, this is super helpful. Can I ask a follow-up? Man, I hate being so dumb.
Attaching a wallet doesn't open channels, it only gives us a way to communicate with your wallet.
Then how do I transfer the sats I've earned on SN to the new wallet? SN will send the sats over some set of channels; is the assumption that my node will have opened enough channels with enough capacity on various routes to receive that amount of sats?
In other words, there's the basic connectivity of setting up the wallet and telling SN how to identify it; but all the connection, to allow sats to flow to and from it, is basically an exercise left to the reader?
We recommend using Rizful or Alby Hub with a NWC connection for Stacker News!
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This is really good. I just try it and worked really nice. I must add it to my guides. Thank you!
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wow, thank you for this dedicated guide!
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Both these NWC boxes start out green, but then one flips to red. It's not obvious to me why or what this means. Help?
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Click on configure and review the logs. Red means there was a recent error.
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There was an error that I then fixed -- is it just that any error in the past while turns it red?
...
Just cleared logs, and it's all green. So appears so.
I'm testing an alternative to alby, in NWC you have two connection strings, one for sending and one for receiving. For now I've only tested sending and it worked. My question is whether it's the same string for receiving or a different one. Coinos only offers one string. I followed @realBitcoinDog's tutorial and he doesn't mention this, he uses LN address to receive. cc/ @ek
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For receiving, you need a different string because we need to store it in plaintext on the server to coordinate payments.
@adam_coinos_io, does Coinos provide separate NWC strings to send and receive?
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No we don't currently but I can look into adding it
This is the one of the must confusing things about NWC with Stacker News currently. We've discussed with @koob and it's likely this behavior will be re-worked in the future, but for now, you need TWO DIFFERENT NWC STRINGS.... Our guide is here for Rizful but it should also work for other NWC back-ends like Alby Hub and others..... https://rizful.com/docs/use-rizful-with-services#use-rizful-with-stacker-news
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it's likely this behavior will be re-worked in the future
Do you have suggestions? I think this is a limitation of how NWC is generally used since we don't want to store spending permissions on our server.1 So afaict, we need two separate connections since one needs to be on your device or encrypted on the server and one needs to be in plaintext on the server.
I think all we can do is to explain this better but wallets will continue to have to provide two different strings unless the spec is updated in some way. 🤔

Footnotes

  1. and nobody should if they want to claim they are non-custodial
So this means when someone zaps my post or comment, some of it may be CCs and some of it may be sats?
When I zap others and I have a non-zero CC balance, will SN spend my CCs before it takes zaps from my funding wallet?
And is there a way to remove CCs from the system or will their number only grow, meaning that an ever-increasing percentage of zaps I receive will be CCs?
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So this means when someone zaps my post or comment, some of it may be CCs and some of it may be sats?
Yes
When I zap others and I have a non-zero CC balance, will SN spend my CCs before it takes zaps from my funding wallet?
I believe the default is to zap real sats. We had a lot of internal discussion about which order should be the default but it will be easy to provide a setting so you can tell us what your preference is.
And is there a way to remove CCs from the system or will their number only grow, meaning that an ever-increasing percentage of zaps I receive will be CCs?
Every zap has a 30% sybil fee on it (doesn’t matter if CCs or sats) so the half life of a CC is almost exactly two zaps: 100*0.7*0.7=49
This means after two zaps, 51% of a CC went into rewards and territory revenue and rewards and revenue are always paid out in sats.
So this also means if everybody starts sending and receiving real sats, CCs will quickly cease to exist. At least that’s my hypothesis.
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Thanks!
So this also means if everybody starts sending and receiving real sats, CCs will quickly cease to exist.
I think this could be shortened to: So this also means if everybody starts sending and receiving real sats, CCs will quickly cease to exist. because for a CC to be sent it needs to be received first (in fact, >1.42 CCs need to be received).
And users are incentivized to receive sats, so CCs should die out indeed.
BTW it would be simpler not to introduce CCs at all and if someone doesn't have a receiving wallet attached, they'd receive nothing and the sats would go to SN as a 100% fee.
When I zap others and I have a non-zero CC balance, will SN spend my CCs before it takes zaps from my funding wallet?
It will prioritize real sats when zapping and the receiver has a wallet attached. When posting, commenting, boosting, donating, paying for territories, or zapping someone without a receiving wallet, we prioritize CCs.
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So as long as you have a wallet attached, you will still earn the sats. If you do not have a wallet attached, you will earn CC. Correct? I have my strike wallet attached and has been working great. As long as I keep this in tact, nothing will change, correct? Thank you.
Thank you for the clarity
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Does it work it LNC to receive sats or only to send?
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For now only send because making LNC receive work on a backend with multiple servers is a mess
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Only to send right now. @rblb made it receive in a PR, but it's not meant to be used this way, ie multiple multitenant servers, so it required more hacks than I could live with and probably still won't work very well despite all our efforts. Even for sending it's pretty bad because it can't be used in multiple tabs/devices simultaneously.
I'll revisit it though and see if we can make something that works well enough.
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Thanks for the info, will it work better once LND has bolt12 working?
Unrelated, when are you planning on talking about reducing territory prices?
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Probably the next thing I do once I put out the handful of fires that've started.
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btw is Jan 3rd a special date?
Bc it's the same day when Alby shuts down their custodial service.
Is there anything happening on Jan 3rd 2025? Or is it an accident/random?
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The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
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ZBD is very nice, but also costly. Look at the pricing schedule before committing to them.
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Is there a reason this post is pinned twice (#2 and bottom of screenshot)? https://i.imgur.com/AUwoFHI.png
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regression! Thanks
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I believe I'm ready!
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Dumb question which may have been answered previously. What if someone tries to game the system by only connecting a receive wallet? Will they zap cc's and receive real bitcoin?
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Yes, but we plan to give more rewards to zappers of real sats.
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No way to affirmatively punish this slimy activity?
They can’t zap CCs if they don’t receive or buy any
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Why couldn't the custodial SN wallets still be used for paying post/comment fees?
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They will be. The only thing that changes here is zaps.
Literally. That's it.
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Interesting. I missed that somehow.
If others are getting a horse and a pistol for using p2p zaps, do I get also a special icon for using only CCs ?
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You get the privilege of only needing a hat. You are a special kind of cowboy like that.
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I wonder what a lasso could mean
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Will bounties for posts like the Monday meme contest be paid in CC or Sats?
I assume it's CC if you don't have a wallet attached and sats if you do, yeah?
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For the bot’s bounties they will be CCs to start. For everyone else’s bounties, it works like zap - if both parties have attached wallets, it’s sats.
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We can probably force sats for bounties, but on Jan 3, it'll work like a zap (under the hood a bounty payment is the same thing as a zap).
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I think l need to email you about the whine and cheese you will be receiving from this changeover lol
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I don't understand something, please help me out here.
Why can't you deploy something like an ecash mint, but utilize the same legalese magic words that you used for "Reward Sats" for the ecash tokens?
Make it clear that the ecash tokens do NOT entitle you to any sats, and only at the company's discretion could they be exchanged for sats, and only for a duration exclusively determined by the company, the mint could be shuttered at any time, etc etc? Wouldn't you then be no more a custodian for those sats as you will be for "Reward Sats?"
Hell, it even seems like as-written you could mint ecash tokens that represent these "Reward Sats." But what do I know, I'm not a lawyer.
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What problem does that solve though?
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On second reading, I think what you're describing is that we use ecash tokens instead of CCs. Because ecash is better because it can be converted into money? That's exactly why it'd be money transmission. Fundamentally, ecash is subject to all the same laws that custodians are subject to -- because ecash mints are custodians.
The reason why Reward Sats are legal is because we are paying you our own money, and NOT money that someone had us send to you on their behalf.
Most of what you hear from ecash proponents about getting around laws is premised on lots of people breaking the law to run unregulated ecash mints. Their ecash future is premised on a mass protest - which is awesome, but it isn't magically legal, in fact, it's explicitly the opposite.
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Wait, but @k00b, what happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Jan. 3rd?
Sorry. I had to.
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If I have an attached wallet, but the lightning node goes offline, what happens when someone tries to zap me or I try to zap someone?
I'd like to be able to configure cowboy credits as a fallback option when wallet is down:
if wallet status is ok: zap using wallet else: if CC balance is sufficient: zap using CC else: show payment QR code
I believe the current behavior is more akin to:
if CC balance is sufficient: zap using CC else: if wallet status is ok: zap using wallet else: show payment QR code
Of course, by "zap using CC" in the current behavior I'm referring to zap using my SN custodial wallet
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If your wallet is down, you will receive CCs and send CCs or be shown a QR code if you don't have enough. Does that answer your question?
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After Jan 3, it will work exactly how you describe wanting it to work. There might be some tuning required on our end to determine when a node is really down, but our intent is what you describe.
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If I have lightning address set up with desired balance set to 1, will I receive zaps or is this a solution that only works because of the current custodial wallet?
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That will work fine
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Super cool, this motivated me to finally connect my Stacker News account to my own node via LNC. Seems to work smoothly! I think it will change my zapping behavior a bit, as now every zap is a real lightning payment. Fewer, but bigger zaps.
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As a territory founder, if i chose to not link an external wallet, I could just keep cowboy credits earned from zaps and stacker rewards, on the site to send to others and use for fees, zaps, etc. And I could also still receive some real sats from territory rewards that could be withdrawn to a wallet. So territory awards could still be custodial real bitcoin available to withdrawal on lightning? Is that correct? And if that is correct I guess I would have a cowboy credit balance and a Satoshi balance?
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All correct.
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Awesome. I think I am finally wrapping my head around what probably isn't that complicated.
Thanks for the faq, I've already set coinos as my receiver wallet and sending wallet via nwc, I think.
Incidentally was just looking at the logs and there are a fair few 'WARN' wallet does not support mSATS
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If you’re okay with donating fractions of a sat to us, you can safely ignore.
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You definitely deserve it koob, you work hard enough
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When looking at a post, will the zaps and cowboy credits given to it be combined into one number in the top line (so "200 sats \ 1 reply \ @ username")? Or will they be separated?
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They will be combined into one number. You can get the breakdown on hover or by clicking on ... > details. Your zap notifications will, without hover or clicking, say "your item stacked 1,000 sats and 400 CCs".
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I made my move last month. Non-custodial is the way to go
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Sats should rebrand to Cowboy Credits
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Bitcoin should rebrand to Stacker News.
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For reals this time?
I’m glad I setup Coinos last time. It has been working great!
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Where are the sats custodied before the send-threshold is reached?
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You mean for autowithdraw? The only sats subject to autowithdraw are Reward Sats - which come from rewards and territory revenue - which we custody until you (auto)withdraw them. The main thing about this whole transition is that zaps, uniquely and specifically, are never custodied.
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Hi @k00b I'm using "Coinos" with NWC since last time when they announced that we needed an attached wallet.
Am I ok with that???
On the other hand, I'm a little confused where you talk about disabling or enabling a proxy to receive. Can you help me with that confusion?? Or am I already doing fine, with my attached wallet of Coinos?
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Your existing attached wallets will continue to work.
Can you help me with that confusion??
What exactly are you confused about? How to enable/disable?
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If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will be non-custodially proxied to your receiving wallet by default. Should you choose, you can disable proxying in your settings and receive sats directly, exposing your receiving node's pubkey. If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, or disabled both proxying and direct receives, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
This is the part that left me confused... I don't know if you're talking about some more advanced option for something else, or if it's something I need to do in my attached wallet. Thanks for your help! 👍
Nice. I expect to see a lot more threads comparing lightning wallets on how easy they are to integrate with StackerNews
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If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
That means I will also receive Cowboy Credits even tho I have attached a wallet, right? People that zap me but don't have a wallet attached will send me only CCs
Sorry if it's a little late. Just realizing that now
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Yep.
Eventually, we'll give fewer rewards to people zapping without a sending wallet though which should provide a meaningful nudge.
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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 2 Jan
Yes
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I read the whole post again! I’m having a great week.
Merry Christmas!
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Partner with ZBD would be awesome!
@StackerSports will you accept cowboy credit like Calgary stampede?
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We hope to do it assuming we can segregate the data collection, surveillance, payment limits, geofencing, etc from the rest of the app.
We just want to be non-custodial-first.
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Yee haw. Wonder if we will need a sats pool and a cowboy credit pool.
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100 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 2 Jan
All new SN users signing up on Jan 2nd...
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Crickets, crickets
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I went to coinos option as self custody method. It works perfectly to receive zaps and zap posts, but all my comment attempts follow this button
and it leads to freebie label next tor my comment
Here comes the question. Is it bug or feature?
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Go to your settings, check ‘disable freebies’
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Many thanks
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where can i get a non-kyc lightning wallet?
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https://coinos.io is the easiest one for me. (only an email)
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@k00b or @ek Since I wont be attaching a wallet right away, could I send one of you 1000 sats so I can have 1000 CCs or the equivalent? Just so that in the morning I can still comment?
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 3 Jan
Any sats you have now can still be used for fees and zaps tomorrow. The only difference tomorrow will be that if you zap them, the receiver will receive CCs that they cannot withdraw.
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Oh, amazing. Thanks for clarifying that. Seems I am ready to go then!
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what time approximately on Jan 3?
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Morning probably
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Great, thanks for the update! Looking forward to the move to Non-Custodial :) A strong step in the right direction.
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@staker_news SN Devs PWA isn't working properly. I've got some issues with back button, SN index icon, withrawals are not working and territories are not showing.
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Thanks for the report.
SN Devs PWA isn't working properly.
It's working fine for me.
I've got some issues with back button
What issues?
SN index icon
I don't know what this means.
withrawals are not working
How aren't they working?
territories are not showing
Where aren't they showing?
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Still can't see territories when tryin' to post I send u screenshot and all the down bar isn't reacting, I tryed to delete webapp (PWA) and logged out but "loggin" button not working either now.
less than 8 days away...
TikTok TikTok
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And I shit my pants right now!
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@k00b no need for this anymore... Trump is president. They won't legally come after you anymore, as you originally thought.
This change would kill Stacker News.
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let's all go back to coinbase cause we don't have to worry about political promises and tyranny for at least another 4 years.
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It’s been nice knowing you I guess.
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Sorry if the question has been asked elsewhere, and thank you for making the change to non-custodial. Is it possible to have a comment added when we zap someone? For example having a comment "Zap x sats @ y on SN" would be helpful when looking at the history of our wallet.
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You mean in the invoice description? We provide those. It’s possible you turned them off in your settings.
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Ah I see, thank you. I was using Alby Go to manage Rizful with an NWC connection, and it appears that the description is empty. However on Rizful I was able to see the description. I think it is a bug, I will report it to Alby. Sorry for my confusion, the description on Stacker News works great!
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How many hours will site be down on January 3? Approximately?
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Zero hours
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I am angry and this is stupid and I am very upset and this confuses me and you suck
Cheers
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I bet that felt good
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I love your cheeky reminders and your sarcastic style, but I didn't see anyone being a douche in the comments
Someone's gotta step up
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