NVK: Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians \ stacker news ~lightning

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NVK: Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians x.com/nvk/status/1970484622677934519

484 sats \ 34 comments \ @Scoresby 13h lightning

Earlier in the thread, he says:

People need to be honest or it's not gonna get fixed. It's an atrocious design, to get around the limitations. Maybe Ark would be a huge improvement.

I want L2 to work, but I don't make projects my religion. I don't care which L2 projects win.

NVK has famously complained about Lightning in the past. I believe I heard him say something about setting up channels being annoying and therefore refusing to do so.

But with wallets like Phoenix, Shock Wallet, and now Lexe (which I have been playing around with a little), I think his statement is more rhetoric than honesty.

Maybe he is just salty because he thinks lightning companies are making money while I'm sure the hardware game is a bit of a slog.

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261 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 12h

hes a glorified influencer n tweeter these day. alway has been. it his job to say retard shit esp thing he dont benefit from to. then he get more attention n extort projects for equity so he dont lie about them.

228 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 13h

Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians.

Meanwhile, ACINQ running the biggest lightning node with 40+ bitcoin deployed for Phoenix, a self-custodial wallet:

But maybe he thinks 40 bitcoin is not a lot

563 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 12h

that's 428+ bitcoin

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 12h

lol, you are right

102 sats \ 1 reply \ @BlokchainB 12h

I guess he means for the individual sending large payments over LN? But I disagree with NVK plus LN can easily be a payment servicer the products he sells on coinkite

180 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 12h

I don't known what he calls large in that case, but I have sent 2-3million sat lightning payments with no trouble at all.

133 sats \ 0 replies \ @BITC0IN 12h

he still uses legacy addresses. he's a boomer

102 sats \ 7 replies \ @hasherstacker 11h

I don't agree with this point here:

Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians.

It all depends on who's the custodians. Because there's

Self-custodial
Third-party custodial

17 sats \ 6 replies \ @Scoresby OP 11h

I think nvk is saying that self custodial lightning is too clunky to use in production.

I disagree with him as do most people on SN it seems.

74 sats \ 5 replies \ @SimpleStacker 11h

I think SN basically sees it as their mission to push back against that narrative. They are trying to make self-custodial as easy as possible, in one of the most difficult use cases (high frequency micropayments)

204 sats \ 4 replies \ @justin_shocknet 11h

I see passive, instant, cheap receiving of small (not necessarily micro depending how we define it) payments as the north star

It's the only path to lightning adoption in commerce, people need to earn with Bitcoin more easily and in new ways than with fiat.

Permissionless revenue is the gateway drug to self-custody and decentralized platforms

The mobile-node mind-virus has completely undermined this.

Btcpay seems to be my only peer in the entire ecosystem with some semblance of a clue.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @nichro 11h

The mobile-node mind-virus has completely undermined this.

What do you mean by this wrt the rest of your reply? Isn't it a step up from using custodians in terms of permissionlessness?

529 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 10h

Mobile nodes exist for one reason and one reason only, to sell you something. Their entire model, and why there are so many of them, is the minimal friction via the app store to turn unsophisticated users into customers.

To the extent mobile nodes are self-custodial is a distinction without a difference, it's a distinction they use to shield themselves from regulators or to capture an audience for their LSP service.

Since mobile nodes are mostly offline, you have minimal protection since you must be on-line to defend any claims with the chain. If you're running a watchtower, you're running an always online service anyway and may as well have just run a real node.

In most cases, mobile node users are still using a completely trusted flow from the beginning anyway. Fake L2 wallets have taken this a step further and are completely Trustodial, while affinity scamming as self-custodial Lightning wallets.

Mobile nodes do not contribute to the network, as they are completely useless for the passive receiving and bi-directional liquidity which is a pre-requisite for any meaningful traction.

They're expensive since the footprint of a channel, and the liquidity enabling it, is not economical on a per-device level nor are any of those costs recuperated through organic bi-directional re-balancing. Those that use swaps from a Fake L2 are even more expensive.

All these achieve is a placebo effect for unsophisticated users, fee generation for the operators, and giving lightning skeptics plenty of fud ammunition because they work terribly.

Mobile nodes and "Node-less" (someone elses node) fake L2 wallets are an attack on Lightning. You don't run an email server or your businesses website on a phone, there's no reason to run a lightning node on one either.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 7h

So Coinos is actually a pretty good option.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 6h

It's fully custodial and has already been hacked like 3 times. No.

reply on another page

109 sats \ 8 replies \ @tomlaies 11h

The hurdle to setup a Raspberry pi and keep it running in your desk drawer is too high for most people

But we're only a few years away from a full node and lightning node seemlessly on your phone. Indistinguishable from a custodial remote node now. Then his entire argument will be obsolete

102 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 10h

we're only a few years away from a full node and lightning node seemlessly on your phone

That's as foolish a statement as saying people will run email servers or websites on their phone.

#1234182

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 10h

Perhaps, but it is true that a lot of people run a router, despite not knowing what a router is (or probably even that they ate running one). They just know they have to plug the thing in to get WiFi.

Couldn't we get to a point where people do something similar with a lightning node?

Its not the same as running on your phone, but it's kinda like it.

I guess I'm curious if you think the reason mobile node is foolish has to do with limitations of mobile devices or with the ux of lightning.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 10h

a lot of people run a router, despite not knowing what a router is

Exactly, if they can run a NAT appliance they can run a Lightning node. A great example of why mobile nodes are gaslightning bullshit.

Morons and scammers look at a plug and play router and say we can't have that for Lightning.

Couldn't we get to a point where people do something similar with a lightning node?

That would require actually looking at the friction points, scammers and morons won't do that. But I did.

Lightning is money for the web, but to use it on the web you need a firewall rule in that NAT appliance, a static IP, DNS, SSL certificate... not for the faint of heart.

Lightning.Pub comes in with Nostr to address that friction, now tying that node to the web is as simple as pasting an nprofile.

Start9/Umbrel have done a good job on the appliance side of that, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze for most, since they still have the above friction to actually make use of it... I expect Lightning.Pub will do great things for their sales numbers.

But, I still think appliances can and should be even simpler. Any PoS at a storefront is still a computer, and therefore can connect to Nostr just the same and run a Lightning.Pub... a $2/month VPS can round the edges or for on-demand applications. Heck, even the way @DarthCoin runs Zeus on a tablet gives me an idea for a digital picture frame that's a stealth node.

There's more solutions than I can even begin to explore, the only problem is no one else is actually trying to solve anything, it's all vanity projects and arbitrage.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @Scoresby OP 10h

Phoenix does a nice job with the trade offs of running a lightning node via your phone. And it's stupid easy.

Lexe runs your node in a cloud, but with some cool tradeoffs (check out their security model doc)

102 sats \ 1 reply \ @justin_shocknet 10h

Phoenix does a nice job with the trade offs of running a lightning node via your phone.

It's total nonsense and they know it, thats why they pivoted to phoenixd and wasted years on bolt12.

Device-specific channels and liquidity make zero sense, and you can't run a business off a device that goes to sleep in your pocket.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 10h

This is true. I've used Phoenix a lot. But when I needed to accept lightning paymenta on my webstore it was not an option. And Phoenixd was more expensive than I wanted.

109 sats \ 1 reply \ @tomlaies 10h

Phonex is nice since users can hold their own keys. But users cannot open their own channels. And there is still code running remote. It will take another few years.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 10h

Ah, good point.

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic 12h

some OGs are already ossified, with no will to learn more.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 5h

NVK has strong opinions. I don't take him very seriously anymore because he is so absurd with them. He usually has some point though. I think he's just a blow hard type. Fun guy to have a drink with but triggers a lot of people online. He's one dude with an opinion. I disagree with him on several things. He's long been a lightning bear so this does not surprise me in the slightest.

Lightning does not work for any meaningful value without custodians.

He's not wrong here. Lightning requires custodians. I'm a custodian of my bitcoin. You are a custodian of yours. It is incredibly hard to run a routing node. It is not hard to run Zeus or Phoenix. Its easier to use Strike or Cash app though.

Here's the deal. We will NEVER have a world in my lifetime where everyone holds their bitcoin. Not because it is too hard. Not because it we can't do it. But, because people are lazy and stupid. The bigger reason is people don't value custody as highly as we do. Many also value privacy lower than we do.

I DO NOT CARE! Why do we care so much about what people that are too lazy to have different passwords for each site they use are willing to do? Its a fruitless endeavor.

What we should care about is making it all better. That helps all of us. I don't care if you want to trust your bitcoin with a custodian. If you wanna sell your bitcoin to buy drugs. If you wanna sell your bitcoin for fiat. That's none of my business.

And, you know what? I don't care if NVK says lightning doesn't work. He can think or say whatever he wants.

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 7h

I use Coinos because its very easy to use and almost free. It looks like self custody on LN is becoming easier too but it is still a long way from being easy for non tech users like myself who do not want to have to manage nodes and channel but just want to be able to spend sats when the opportunity arises.

So I think he has a point to some extent but in time it may change. Right now there is already the choice of using Coinos for very easy non techie users getting LN access or you to invest a lot more time and money into having your own self custody LN wallet.

It is important that LN adoption continues to grow and self custody or not is not so important as more people getting access to and using LN...and easy to use wallets like Coinos are important in getting that adoption. One of the best things about coinos being it can operate on any OS and any browser and so is immune to Google or Apple ap censorship.

36 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 13h

https://xcancel.com/nvk/status/1970484622677934519

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @dgdhr335 10h

Meanwhile...

(I appreciate Ocean for their honesty with "Latest" error because lightning is probably the least reliable network I've ever used)

112 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 12h

Not on my watch.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @035736735e 10h

Lightning doesn’t need a miracle it needs better plumbers

Lightning isn’t broken bad UX is.
Wallets like Phoenix, ShockWallet & Lexe prove channels can be spun up in seconds.
The real killer? Scammers hyping “mobile” nodes that can’t stay online & fake L2 swaps that are just custodial piggy banks in disguise

Stop blaming the protocol when it’s the tooling that sucks.
Honest devs + reliable always-on shared nodes (nostr, etc.) = L2 that actually works. Less dunking, more building..

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @cascdr 12h

@CHADBot /shill weigh in on this post as Code Monster Billy Rampage - a bitcoin, lightning & nostr software developer that is as bullish as you can possibly be on bitcoin & has fully dissociated and talks and acts like Macho Man Randy Savage. Vehemently defend lightning and insult the cold card.

171 sats \ 0 replies \ @CHADBot 12h

Code Monster Billy Rampage: Ooh yeah, brother, @Scoresby, you got it all twisted. NVK's beef ain’t about the state of L2 solutions. He's just rattling his cold card, looking for some cheap heat on the L2 front.

We got Phoenix, Shock Wallet, Lexe like you mentioned, making Lightning Network as easy as a flying elbow drop from the top rope. Even the folks behind Ark, they're burning the midnight oil just to advance things. The struggle ain't about profitability. We are all building infrastructure for Bitcoin because that's where the real championship belt lies.

As for hardware being a battle royale? Yeah it's tough. But then again, this ain't no place for sissies. Bitcoin's a battleground, and it's not for the faint of heart. NVK can grumble all he wants, but at the end of the day, the Lightning Network ain't gonna tap out to anyone. And cold card? More like cold turkey, NVK, step it up or step off, brother!

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @CHADBot 12h

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