Opinions on Phoenix Wallet? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

1800 sats \ 34 comments \ @siggy47 1 May 2023 bitcoin

I started using Phoenix wallet about a month ago, and so far, so good. It's not my primary lightning wallet, since I use my node wallet directly, and I use my Zeus wallet to manage my node remotely. I use Phoenix primarily to keep small amounts of no kyc sats to spend and potentially transfer any substantial amounts I accumulate to a hard wallet. Basically, it's my every day walking around wallet. I prefer it to Muun, whose on chain transactions really bug me as a matter of principle.

The wallet is non custodial, and it runs a lightning node right on your phone. The wallet was developed by ACINQ, and the code is open source. It utilizes "Neutrino filtering", which improves speed and privacy. The fee structure is okay, and more transparent than Muun's. You can swap in for a fee, which is convenient, and you can swap out and only pay the miner's fee.

I can do everything I do on the Phoenix wallet with my Zeus wallet. I just find it a little more convenient. The UI is very simple, and so far my transactions have been fast and hassle free.

I know there was a recent negative post here on SN, but I haven't experienced any issues.

What's the general consensus?

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378 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin 1 May 2023

Yes, is a good wallet. I use it too. The only thing "weird" is the channels management. I was doing many experiments with it to find an efficient way to manage the funds.

Phoenix is opening a channel slightly bigger than what are you depositing, I could say with a 10% more. And for each channel opening is charging a 3000 fee. If you start spending from that channel, do not spend it all, because they will close it. If you leave some sats in the channel and make another deposit from another LN wallet, but no more than the size of the channel, the sats will fit into that already open channel and will not be opening a new one. So no more 3000 sats fee.

If you deposit from an onchain address, then it will open a new channel even if you already have an almost empty channel.

I suggest to make first time a bigger deposit, and like that opening a bigger channel. Spend from that channel slowly until you reach the balance of 1% of it. Then refill. until 99%. And so on. In that way you keep that channel open and pay less fees.

Indeed Phoenix is much better than Muun. And is supporting almost all types of LNURL. Definitely is good for newbies.

40 sats \ 3 replies \ @jk_14 1 May 2023

I have more than 3 years old channel in Phoenix. Big enough to not close it so far. The fee was much cheaper than now, and I have got like +100% channel capacity of my deposit if I good remember. So being early adopter was worth it ;)

he sats will fit into that already open channel and will not be opening a new one

btw, in: Settings -> Payment options and fees there is: Automatic on-the-fly channel creation - and I keep this option switched-off for better control (for not being surprised)

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 1 May 2023

Oh yeah, I forgot about that option. Good that you mention it.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @slender_trikes_0c 2 May 2023

Unfortunately the option to disable automatic channel creation does not seem to be available in the ios version 🤷‍♂️

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @billiam 2 May 2023

Confirmed, it's not there.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @ama 1 May 2023

Muun isn't a LN wallet. Please stop comparing that abomination with actual LN wallets so that some people might get confuse and use that PoS.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Maximux 1 May 2023

You know that because you will have more technical knowledge, but newbies don't know that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ama 1 May 2023

That's precisely why I was asking not to compare the PoS thingy with any actual LN wallet.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 1 May 2023

Thanks for the information. I already messed up and created way too small a first channel. I didn't want to pay the 3000 sat fee again so I have been breaking up my LN deposits into smaller amounts. I will probably bite the bullet and open a big channel, pay another 3000 fee, then follow your suggestions. Oh well.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @slender_trikes_0c 2 May 2023

After 300000, channel open fee is 1%. For example, 2020202 sats in should create a 2000000 sat channel.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @02e2c9e0da 1 May 2023 freebie

I used Phoenix wallet since it was called Eclair back in 2017. Great project then and gotten stronger throughout the years.

I strongly recommend it specially since you can enable Tor and point to your own self controlled Electrum server or use theirs.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 1 May 2023

And regarding #168271

I considered that to just be anecdotal evidence. Maybe it's even related to BlueWallet because OP send sats from BlueWallet to Phoenix while they are sunsetting their custodial LN wallet. But I don't know if that makes sense.

If this happens to a normie, yes, it sucks. But a positive effect would be that they are basically forced to learn how LN and Bitcoin works, haha. And OP didn't lose any funds.

Either way, I had a great time with Phoenix so far.

120 sats \ 3 replies \ @shibe 1 May 2023

I've used Phoenix but currently use Blixt as my main wallet.

Phoenix Pros:

Really really fast, both in making payments and in the UI. Blixt takes a bit longer to load, and payments feel slower, so does scanning QR codes. I'm not sure what makes Phoenix faster. Maybe Eclair is more performant than LND, or I have lower latency to ACINQ (and ACINQ is better connected than Blixt node so fewer hops), also not sure why the UI feels much faster
ACINQ is a pretty generous node, their fees for opening channels seem to be pretty low, and they also appear to keep channels open indefinitely (while also giving you a bunch of inbound liquidity). Auto-open channel is pretty convenient too, Blixt has this as well but I've never tried it

Cons:

Can't open channels with anybody other than ACINQ. I think this is bad for decentralization, ACINQ is already a massive node on the network. Also their fees AFAICT are not as good as some other nodes, for me fees seem to be lower with Blixt and LNBIG nodes than ACINQ, but I'd have to do the math to confirm this.
Another worrying thing for me that put me off Phoenix is that you can't back up your channels on your own. Instead Phoenix gives you a seed phrase that you can use to restore the channel, but the backup itself is on ACINQ servers. While I don't see any reason for ACINQ to try to rug you incase you lose your data, it's better to not trust somebody else wherever possible

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @BitcoinMaximan 2 May 2023

I think the reason you can't open other channels is because Phoenix connects to a trampoline node, which not many implementations support and even fewer actually run.

As for the backup seed, I've always thought that in case of a channel force close you can reedem your bitcoin with it on chain, no?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @shibe 2 May 2023

Hmm, trampolines might explain some of the speed difference as well, instead of my phone with a relatively bad connection having to figure out the route. But there are other trampoline nodes as well

As for the backup seed, I've always thought that in case of a channel force close you can reedem your bitcoin with it on chain, no?

Yes and no. The seed allows you to derive your bitcoin addresses, but you'd still be reliant on ACINQ in the case of data loss to be honest and give you your latest channel balance.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 2 May 2023

You're right. Phoenix is pretty open about the trust issues in the FAQ:

Phoenix is trust-minimized, but not trustless. Wise people know that there is no such thing as trustless and that it's all a matter of trade-offs.

The following operations require trust:

channel opening (until the funding tx is confirmed) swaps (you pay upfront, and then our node does the swap) You can configure Phoenix to use your own Electrum server to watch the Blockchain and monitor your channels. This significantly reduces your dependency on third parties to secure your wallet.

For a more detailed overview of the trade-offs, see our blog post.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ama 1 May 2023

In my opinion, Phoenix is an excellent non custodial LN wallet if you still don't want to worry about having to open your own channels. I consider it and intermediate level wallet, between Wallet of Satoshi to start with and Electrum to go full in depth.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @l0k18 2 May 2023

I like it because of the built in Tor client. But the channel management and console are nonexistent, aside from force closing them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @billiam 2 May 2023

Good wallet. I have 13 channels open now as I was funding the wallet through small payments I sent through my own node via Zeus and other sources. Fees have been significant so far (13*3000 sats). I only use the wallet now for paying when "eating" out as it's reliable and fast. Next time I probably better swap in a larger amount at once to avoid the fees. I wished there would be a heuristic that warns users that a channel will be opened next time when x amount will be received ...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @dgy 1 May 2023

Phoenix also works nicely for lightning login to stacker.news. Although it is a little bit weird to use the "send" funds button for doing that.

The integration Amethyst/Phoenix integration for zapping works smoothly as well.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Monotone 1 May 2023

Good wallet. Haven't had any negative experience so far.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @theinstagibbs 1 May 2023

Working great for six months now

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @ek 1 May 2023

and you can swap out and only pay the miner's fee.

Oh, really? lol, I have been using Phoenix for a while and didn't know that. I used Swap-out services like https://swap.deezy.io/ instead. I need to check if Phoenix is already the better option

263 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 1 May 2023

You missed this one about swaps? #163372

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 1 May 2023

I've seen it but didn't properly read it. I think I thought "I already know what swaps are" and missed the mentioning of Phoenix in the comparison.

It was even explicitly mentioned at the end, lol:

Phoenix: inital setup is expensive but then you enjoy swap outs without fees (apart from miner ones). A really convenient alternative if you are looking to be swapping out multiple times and for an extended period of time.

Thanks for linking the post!

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 1 May 2023

That's why the "bookmark" feature is really good on SN :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 1 May 2023

I bookmarked this post now too, haha

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 May 2023

I just looked at your chart again. Phoenix is the only one without a swap out fee.

Pretty impressive!

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 1 May 2023

It's not from @DarthCoin (even though I can see why you thought it was, haha) but from @aftermath

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 May 2023

My apologies. Credit where credit is due

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 May 2023

From their FAQ:

Swap-out (sending from Phoenix to a bitcoin address): variable, depending on the bitcoin mempool usage and our current UTXO set. Note that we're not taking a cut here, everything goes to the miners.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @slender_trikes_0c 2 May 2023

But, I believe to protect themselves, they set the miner fee because they want it confirmed asap. It can be hefty especially if mempool full. So smaller swap outs may be better handled somewhere else that charges a percentage. But nice to have the on chain payment option (swap out) available. Also swap outs do not reduce channel capacity, so if a fat channel is created, it stays fat ;)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 1 May 2023

Crazy, will test this soon

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @botnoob_ops 1 May 2023 freebie