Phoenix 0.5% fee on every transaction is just killing the purpose of using LN. \ stacker news ~bitcoin

Phoenix 0.5% fee on every transaction is just killing the purpose of using LN.

3089 sats \ 42 comments \ @iguano 3 Oct 2023 bitcoin

I'm back on chain using muun.

1158 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ksjznxnxkxksn 3 Oct 2023

You could choose Bitkit, Mutiny or Blixt. These wallets are similar to Phoenix, but allow you to connect to any LSP/node.

Muun <<

332 sats \ 7 replies \ @Natalia 3 Oct 2023

yes, I uninstalled Phoenix for a while, too much fee, Breez too.

Here is my setup:

Zeus with my own node
Blixt as a backup when I'm out and about
Multiple custodial wallets: WOS, Blink, and Alby, each serving different purpose

18 sats \ 1 reply \ @nemo 3 Oct 2023

deleted by author

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 3 Oct 2023

thanks, I learned it from @darthcoin and minimizing the setup for myself, less is more.!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2023

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 4 Oct 2023

I was waiting for your beer run 🍻

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @quark 3 Oct 2023

I am ok with phoenix and breez, but I want to move to Zeus and Blixt too. The worst part for me about having your own node is you have to run it continuously and with a reliable connection. I know there are watchtower things but I need to study about it. is it cheap?

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Natalia 3 Oct 2023

The worst part for me about having your own node is you have to run it continuously and with a reliable connection.

A bit, that's why I'm using Blixt as a backup when I'm travelling.

is it cheap?

Running your own node? It has some initial hardware setup costs, but then no more middlemen, and you can even run your own bank or act as Uncle Jim for your family and friends 👀 ( I'm using Umbrel )

I'd recommend trying Blixt first, low cost starting fun, and it's a really cool phone node; But keep that in mind: Blixt is new, good to experiment and learn while it is maturing.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @quark 3 Oct 2023

ah sorry I mean if is it cheaper to use watchtowers that check if your node goes offline to avoid risks. I know they exist but I don't know how it works yet I guess I will follow your advice and try Blixt first :) thanks!

129 sats \ 2 replies \ @pillar 3 Oct 2023

Someone comes and offers a great service that the market demands and no one is offering.

Because they are pretty much alone, they can charge a lot and have a juicy margin. They still sell since there is no competition.

Eventually, some ballsy entrepreneur notices the situation and thinks to himself: "I can do the same thing for half the price". And he goes and does it.

As more of these hungry entrepreneurs join the scene, competitions starts and the margins go lower and lower, translating into lower and lower prices for customers. The starting guys can't keep charging the fat margin anymore.

So, don't stress out and just give things some time. Phoenix is charging what they charge because they can get away with it, until competition joins and they won't be able to. And the hefty fee is precisely what's going to make all of it possible.

Finally, I find it hard to see how they are killing the purpose of using LN. I paid 2342 sats for my coffee this morning with Phoenix and the fee was 12 sats. That's clearly much better than what I would have had to pay with an onchain transaction, so I feel the purpose of LN with Phoenix is very much alive.

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @rod 3 Oct 2023

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 3 Oct 2023

Much better than the credit card networks as well Visa/MasterCard/AMEX. 12 sat fee isn’t bad to buy a coffee

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 3 Oct 2023

Tbh, I think Muun is killing the purpose of LN with submarine swaps (if they still do that)

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2023

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

With Muun, you are on chain. They just give swap services for LN. But the point is that their are cheaper.

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2023

have fun being screwed by Muun.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano OP 4 Oct 2023

I’ll le you know :)

145 sats \ 7 replies \ @siggy47 3 Oct 2023

On chain fees are about as low as they will likely get right now. That can change in a hurry.

297 sats \ 6 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

I'm pretty sure it will change, but expending 100$ or more give you room to get into 10s/b or so if you compare it to 0.5% fee.

605 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 3 Oct 2023

True. It certainly makes sense right now. At the same time I dont think Phoenix fees are ridiculously high. We have to expect these projects to be able to earn a profit from the considerable work they put in.

410 sats \ 4 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

Yep, 100%, but I also believe competition is healthy for users.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 3 Oct 2023

I agree. It's smart to keep an eye on the "arbitrage." Do you run a node? I usually use Zeus connected to my node.

297 sats \ 2 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

I ran a LND node for couple of years, when zap (Jack Mallers app) was a thing and it was maintained, but I became lazy lately.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 3 Oct 2023

I just realized that was a dumb question! You wouldn't be talking about Muun and Phoenix. I have to admit I use Phoenix even when I could use Zeus sometimes. It just seems smooth and convenient, but I'm throwing away sats.

297 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

yep, I will take a look other options, I was happy using electrum few years ago.

reply on another page

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 3 Oct 2023

Try Electrum. And Blink

11 sats \ 6 replies \ @aoeu 3 Oct 2023

Just ran into this today. Was going to do a Phoenix to Phoenix invoice which was typically less than 5 sats. With the new version it would have cost 4000 sats. Crazy.

Back to using Mutiny, Zeus, Breez

2 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 3 Oct 2023

You sure that was the tx fee and not the fee to open a channel (includes mining fee)?

296 sats \ 3 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

sending "big" amounts like >50$ will cost you more on phoenix than on-chain (with the current on-chain fees).

But if you are sending 100$ or more constantly, onchain is cheaper even with high fees.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 3 Oct 2023

Ah, I see:

Yeah, with 1-2 sat/vB onchain LN is only useful for micropayments.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

Also , when you receive a payment bigger than the inbound capacity you have you will be paying the onchain fee too.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @aoeu 7 Oct 2023

I have plenty of channels open with outbound liquidity higher than $100 and pay much less than what on-chain fees would cost. If I was doing thousands of dollars, then it would be different

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @aoeu 7 Oct 2023

Yeah, definitely not opening channel fee. Onchain fees were really cheap at the time. I ended up sending the transaction on Zeus for a much cheaper fee. Zeus has some cool new LSP features where you can run an embedded node on your own phone.

3 sats \ 0 replies \ @sime 3 Oct 2023

0.4% ?

https://acinq.co/blog/phoenix-splicing-update#fee-comparison

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @2bithits 3 Oct 2023

Fees are high, but you don't need to run a LN node, hold your keys & most of all it just works.

Muun is ok for a dead mempool

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Krv 18 Jan

Their service is very good so I don't mind if they get compensated for this. I want their business to be successful. An extra fee for a self custodial wallet is worth it to me.

Interesting to note that they have since dropped the fee to 0.4%.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @badabing 3 Oct 2023

Trying out the Zeus LSP node, which also ends up with a +- 0.4% fee.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fred 3 Oct 2023

I hold some on my custodial wallet - Wallet of Satoshi

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nicosey 3 Oct 2023

Permission transactions will never be cheap or should be.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano OP 3 Oct 2023

I guess you wanted to say permission-less?

Whats the point of LN then?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Louferlou 3 Oct 2023

It still makes sense IRL to buy at a merchant's store but I agree it's really expensive

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @deepologic 3 Oct 2023

Breez?