How to secure backup seed at the airport? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

How to secure backup seed at the airport?

4710 sats \ 72 comments \ @momboteq 17 Dec 2023 bitcoin

Hey, I have a question about securing seed when flying out of the country permanently. If I have a copy on paper and put it in my luggage it will be scanned at the airport and someone can have access to my Bitcoins. I can have a seed card in my pocket but there is also the risk of it falling out. What is a better and safer way to carry the seed away? Maybe just create a backup again upon arrival at the destination?

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547 sats \ 30 replies \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

In your brain. Memorize your additional passphrase. Do not use the 12 or 24 words only.

Or use border wallets. With sparrow wallet for example. https://www.borderwallets.com

51 sats \ 28 replies \ @kytt 17 Dec 2023

I did this memorizing 2-4 words at a time and it was relatively easy. Say them to yourself multiple times per day until it sticks, then add another 2-4 words.

Now I just say my words to myself once every few days just to ensure that they stay.

132 sats \ 21 replies \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

no no no, don't memorize the 24 words. You will forget them. That technique, while it is good, it is not 100% safe. The brain changes with age, and for the worst, and also, you could have an accident, some head trauma, that can make you forget everything.

Memorize your passphrase which is like the 25th word. The passphrase can be something more easy to remember for you than the 24 random words because you make it, and still be secure just to cross the border and airports.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @kytt 17 Dec 2023

Who said I memorized 24 words?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

oh it is true I thought you were, because the way you described the technique adding 2-4 words each time. But you didn't say this was to memorize the 24 words.

10 sats \ 10 replies \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

How to use passpharse to recover 24 words? Do you mean simply encrypt them using some algorithm and passpharse?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @kytt 17 Dec 2023

Download Sparrow Wallet on your desktop computer and you'll see that when you create new wallet, not only can you select 12/24 words, but you can select an option to add an additional word or set of characters of your own choosing. This word or set of characters does not have to be part of the BIP39 word bank.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 7 replies \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

the passphrase is your 25th word or 13th word depending if you use 24 or 12 for the seed. It is created when you create your wallet. If your wallet doesn't provide you with a way to enter the passphrase, change your wallet. Memorize your passphrase just to cross the airport. You were worried that they can scan your 24 words at the airport. If they enter those 24 words without your passphrase, they would only see an empty wallet. They can't do anything with it. They would need the 25 words in order to access your sats.

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

You simply mean a wallet that additionally requires an additional password to recreate the wallet?

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @kytt 17 Dec 2023

A passphrase is optional. It's just a new word, of your choice, added to the end of your 12 or 24 word seedphrase.

A specific 12/24 word seedphrase is for a particular wallet. If you add a passphrase to the end of that, it's a completely different wallet. One person could have a seedphrase with 12 of the same words and another person could have those same 12 words + a passphrase and it would be a completely different wallet. Those two wallets would not be connected in any way whatsoever, even though their private key is almost exactly the same.

I have setup my passphrase to be very long and memorable, but easily reconfigurable (for me) so that if I want a completely new wallet, I just reorganize my passphrase, but still use the same seedphrase.

Example:

Let's say your 12 words are all the same:

goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat

That's one wallet

Now lets create a new wallet:

goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat goat + janfebmaraprmayjunjulaugsepoctnovdec [this last bit is your passphrase]

This is a completely different wallet and private key

This passphrase is similar to how I've done my own passphrase, but I use something else that is memorable to me. If I used the passphrase above and wanted to reorganize it, I could do something like:

febmaraprmayjunjulaugsepoctnovdecjan

decnovoctsepaugjuljunmayaprmarfebjan

and each of those would create ANOTHER completely different wallet/private key

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

maybe it is interesting to use the goat example part as a passphrase too. You did the goat as representing the seed phrase part right? But we could use that in the passphrase too, it increases the length of the passphrase a lot while you only have to memorize the word goat and the number of times. low cost complexity added. should be always used with a more random string after it.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @quark 17 Dec 2023

yes. like sparrow wallet for example it is not required. it is optional.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

okay

reply on another page

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @rblb 18 Dec 2023

Bad advice. If the passphrase is chosen by an human to be easy to remember, chances are that it will be pretty easy to bruteforce given the seed phrase, since there is no rate limits besides the computing power to create a wallet. The entire deal about password managers we use (or should use) today is to create secure passwords because humans suck at it.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kytt 18 Dec 2023

My passphrase is >25 characters long, but very easy for me to remember because of how I've structured it.

Good luck cracking that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @rblb 18 Dec 2023

There is absolute no way with the current technology to bruteforce a 25+ character passphrase that contain no known words or meaning. The only question is if the way you structured it undermines these assumptions.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @quark 18 Dec 2023

You cannot effectively brute force attack a passphrase, can you? You need to contact the node and to check balance each time.

In any case, this was just to pass the airport, and then you could move the funds again to a more secure and backed up passphrase.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @rblb 18 Dec 2023

You cannot effectively brute force attack a passphrase, can you? You need to contact the node and to check balance each time.

Why wouldn't it be effective if you are using one or more local nodes? It is just a database after all. And i think you don't even need to contact a node if you know at least one public address of the wallet.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @quark 18 Dec 2023

I don't know. Maybe. I'm not a hacker 😅

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kytt 18 Dec 2023

There are plenty of ways to make things easy to remember AND secure. Don't let someone else's fear persuade you.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @rblb 18 Dec 2023

indeed, 12/24 words seeds are easy to remember and secure.

11 sats \ 5 replies \ @davidw 17 Dec 2023

Good tip. Though I wouldn’t recommend this for long periods of time. The amount of times I’ve forgotten my 4 digit card PIN in my life. Fine for short-term, but for most people - wouldn’t say it should be relied upon once you’ve made the trip.

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @kytt 17 Dec 2023

Not everyone has issues with remembering things. To each their own. Find what works for you.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @xz 17 Dec 2023

I suppose if you were suffering from amnesia you could carry something to remind you of the phrase/word, like a photograph.

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @RoundaboutStacker 17 Dec 2023

Would not suggest a photo sind a photo is often taken with a smart phone and most of these are automatically backed up to the cloud. Once your seed is in the cloud it is vulnerable to hacking since you have no idea who might have access or where they will end up.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xz 17 Dec 2023

Now that's a good point. Important distinction.

I was thinking of a physical photo, like a kodak print. Not carrying a phone. Physical objects, something like as simple as a piece of fruit. Depends how your memory works and how efficiently you could use a mnemonic device.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Sasquatch 18 Dec 2023

At this moment. Time is undefeated.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 17 Dec 2023

This

If its just to cross a border you can memorize it. Just make sure you really have it down. When you have arrived in a safe place, write it down again. Don't depend on your memory for longer periods of time.

38 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 17 Dec 2023

Simple bring a Bible and circle or underline the words

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

marking words in any book seems an interesting way

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @SwearyDoctor 17 Dec 2023

foreign country? have a notebook (paper) with vocabulary on you. It can be in your carryon bag. it's just 1000 words and their translations. Have a system.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

it's quite a good idea

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Sasquatch 17 Dec 2023

I have been thinking about this for a while and I like the book idea as a backup. The book itself needs to be something that is not going to attract attention. Religious texts and books that are political in nature could get attention travelling in some areas. So I thought that a puzzle book (crossword game) could be used in some fashion.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 17 Dec 2023

Now there's an idea... :0

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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22 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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12 sats \ 0 replies \ @franzap 17 Dec 2023

Agree with this, make a poem with the words (in order obviously, or in reverse order) and make a copy. And only keep a passphrase in your head.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @030a29f333 17 Dec 2023

How would you recommend backing up a passphrase? Seen plenty of horror stories of people forgetting/losing that. Some people are extremely opposed to passphrases for that reason. I'm not, just an observation

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 17 Dec 2023

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390 sats \ 2 replies \ @fiatdenier 17 Dec 2023

Write it on your dick

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @elysia 17 Dec 2023

That's totally not gonna fit even with 12 words.

130 sats \ 0 replies \ @030a29f333 17 Dec 2023

Maybe not you, but for me it'll work

;)

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitByBit21 17 Dec 2023

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Krv 19 Dec 2023

Idea, Find a numbered list of the Bip39 word list. Write down the indices. To the outside it would look like meaninless list of numbers. And/or maybe enclose it something that can't be seen through

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Krv 19 Dec 2023

Like here:https://www.blockplate.com/pages/bip-39-wordlist Just don't forget what you did :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @030e0dca83 18 Dec 2023

You can transform your private key into emojis, into hex colours, etc

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 18 Dec 2023

This is trickier than people give it credit for because 1) You shouldn't ever type your seed into the computer in case of malware, & 2) the Human brain basically can't be trusted to remember something that long.

At home you should use a metal seed vault that you hide and then memorize a password to the wallet it backs up. Basically, to travel with your seed your job is to leave that at home but make that seed phrase virtual & encrypted with your password so it can be transported or parked online without anyone else being able to read it.

Here's how to do that safely:

Download Tails (https://tails.net) and flash it to a jump drive.
Grab a disconnected laptop and boot it into tails.
Once that boots, create a word document in open office.
Type in your seed phrase. (Make sure no one is in your room and no cameras are pointed your way)
Save the file with encryption. Use a really great password for this, 13+ characters with numbers and special characters, etc. It's your money this password protects! -But of course it has to be a password you can remember. (So maybe it's ok to use the same PW here as your existing wallet PW again. You don't want to risk memorizing both.) You are your worst threat here.
Rename the file something innocuous like 'party_invitation.doc' or whatever doesn't sound interesting to custom officials.
Send it to your phone over a USB cable, or to a cloud account you know you can access from other countries.
Test it.

That's it, just be damn sure you've memorized your longass password backwards and forwards. And if you know you're going to be using it on the other side, bring that Tails drive to open it under on that side... Because other computers may have malware at that stage.

Good luck!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats 18 Dec 2023

passphrase

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @brave 18 Dec 2023

Divide part of the keys and save it as the ending to the contact of your favourite callers on phone

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yoshi 18 Dec 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatoshiNakanodo 18 Dec 2023

Pretend you’re studying the language of wherever you’re flying to – bring flash cards with your words.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @antic 17 Dec 2023

Pack a deck of cards and save the encrypted output to cloud storage: https://www.schneier.com/academic/solitaire/

card deck could get stolen or shuffled though :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orthwyrm 17 Dec 2023

First of all, regardless of your back-up scheme, there should never be a single point of failure. And secondly, no secrets should ever be stored online.

Using a seed + passphrase, consider the following scheme:

#1: Seed on paper @ Country A, Location A #2: Passphrase on paper @ Country A, Location B #3: Seed on paper @ Inside your wallet #4: Passphrase @ Memorised (should be ~6 words taken from BIP-39 list)

If your seed is apprehended in transit or you forget your passphrase, you can still recover the back-ups in country A so you don't lose your funds. Then you can try again.

Once you make it to country B, transfer funds to a completely new wallet as you are no longer able to check-in on the unguarded back-ups left in country A.

If at some point you do go back to country A, destroy the old back-ups for privacy reasons (why I recommended paper).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 17 Dec 2023

My solutions: 1) leave the seeds at geographically different locations if it is multisig. 2) Maybe use a seed xor if it is singlesig. 3) Use a small dictionary and underline each word of your seed, then mark the page number somewhere in bitwarden.

In my case I have a small dictionary to avoid having a hand luggage over 7kg, hardware wallets with pass codes anyway, multisig with 2 seeds I don't have in my possession. Also if you go to countries where the law is working, besides India where it was more strict they don't look at your papers anyway, they look at metal things which can be used as weapons. So until now no problem with my hardware wallets protected with a code or passphrase in my 7kg luggage and seeds somewhere else. This works great in Asia, but if you go to Venezuela and you get robbed by someone with a gun there may be better alternative solutions.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nathan_day 17 Dec 2023

Border Wallets gotchu.

https://www.borderwallets.com/

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasenwar 17 Dec 2023

Put it on tails and just carry the usb stick in your pocket, mail another copy to your new address

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 17 Dec 2023

https://seedxor.com/

Encrypt one and store in cloud, other one on paper in a book.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elysia 17 Dec 2023

How do you do this without a coldcard?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 17 Dec 2023

https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/blob/master/docs/seed-xor.md

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ToxicSaraTV 17 Dec 2023

12 word phrase. memorize it or encode it in the margins of a book or something.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NewsnNudes 17 Dec 2023

just try not to travel hahahhahaa

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Gian 17 Dec 2023

Steganography with an image

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Natalia 17 Dec 2023

use your memory
break the seeds into different pieces + leave 1-2 words out in other places
make a poem or story from the seeds

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @momboteq OP 17 Dec 2023

As you get older, you may forget the seed so a memory isn't the best solution. Of course, if you have several backups and this is one of them, then by all means

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 17 Dec 2023

Of course, if you have several backups and this is one of them, then by all means

yes, should have at least 3 copy for your big stacks:)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @davidw 17 Dec 2023

Wouldn’t trust this for actual funds or a hot wallet but this tool can let you encrypt legible sentences and change the complete structure of them, with peace of mind.

I’ve not yet used it, but also led to this also being created. Perhaps useful for people that want to encrypt backup files, if cleaning drives. Maybe not for private keys however.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @dtonon 17 Dec 2023

Digital: USB with encrypted zip file (generated on an air-gapped system). Rename it to pdf to pretend it is corrupted and add a random of other stuff.

Analogic: keep a notebook with handwritten stuff and glued piece of texts, create a memorizable schema to recover the seed from it.

Backup: memory.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @c47c24c8f4 18 Dec 2023 freebie

https://borderwallets.com

We are now natively supported in Sparrow and Bitcoin Tribe.

Bon voyage :)