Swan Bitcoin not allowing coinjoined Bitcoin deposits or withdrawals. \ stacker news ~bitcoin

Swan Bitcoin not allowing coinjoined Bitcoin deposits or withdrawals.twitter.com/HodlMagoo/status/1723359155254132976

3665 sats \ 41 comments \ @BITC0IN 11 Nov 2023 bitcoin

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1162 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 11 Nov 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 12 Nov 2023

Truth. Why even bother using CoinJoin if you ever plan on sending to a KYC off ramp?

832 sats \ 2 replies \ @knorozov 11 Nov 2023

Jesus cut it out already.

They chose to be a simple on ramp for fiat and the consequences are you have to play by the fiat rules and that's what they're doing.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @justsmile 12 Nov 2023

Any bitcoin one buys anywhere can be recycled into a totally unrelated UTXO. One way is to first peg-in the on-chain sats using your own elementsd node (or TDEX smartphone opensource app which can do the same without need of running your node) into LiquidBTC* and then peg-out using SideSwap - all on Blockstream Liquid.

It sounds like YASC, but is not. Learn about Liquid. The nodes fully depend on a running Bitcoin Core node and funds while liquid are held on 11of15 multisig addresses.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @knorozov 12 Nov 2023

wrong thread?

673 sats \ 6 replies \ @fluff_stack 11 Nov 2023

My first thought was OMG WTF?! NOT SWAN! But then I thought: Wait this is Magoo, while he's a hardcore maxi, he's kinda a short sighted dick when it comes to his blind vendetta against Swan.

Why does this "news" not matter? And why does Swan not care that Fortress (their Trust Company) are Statist whores??! Answer below:

SWAN DOESN'T HAVE A SELL BUTTON. FFS. SWAN DOESN'T EVEN OFFER RECEIVING BTC ADDRESSES. THERE IS NO REASON TO EVER TRANSFER YOUR MIXED BTC TO SWAN.

The ONLY business Swan does where this could have a negative outcome; is Swan WILL receive your ETH, liquidate it instantly, and give you Bitcoin. If you mixed your ETH you may get the shaft. Screw ETH, it's captured; too late.

Screw Magoo - While I love him as an anti-state, Bitcoin maxi brother; he's a blind asshole in his hatred of all things Swan. It's a miracle Swan offers a business which will trade your fiat-statist-bucks for Bitcoin. Rejoice, buy as much Bitcoin as humanly possible, while you still can, mix your heart out.

476 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 12 Nov 2023

Any background on why he has a vendetta vs Swan?

152 sats \ 1 reply \ @fluff_stack 12 Nov 2023

No idea why; just search his post history for Swan mentions. Magoo and Stoney - blind hate. I get it; centralized exchanges are no good; but Swan is a bit different because they do remind and educate their users on the importance of self-custody quite very regularly. I just see a company dealing with a ton of fiat bullshit in the effort to get Bitcoin into the hands of plebs in $10+ sizes. Swan also makes sure your Bitcoin held in balance is linked to a legal Trust, in your name. Bankruptcy proof, not perfect, but is unique in the space.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 12 Nov 2023

Yeah, agreed. I don't know what more they could do to be good actors; and more than that, seems like Cory really gets it, and is doing a lot of the long-term strategy, e.g., education, conferences, assorted other outreach, creating their own custodian, doing the PR to separate btc from other crypto, coalition-building, etc.

That stuff, in the final analysis, will have more to do w/ whether btc is successful on a 5 year vs a 50 year timescale than anything I can think of. I don't even agree with a lot of it --- I find the podcasts unlistenable, and the excerpts from the conferences I've seen overwhelm me with Get Jesus energy -- but there are a million ways to contribute and there's no denying that Swan is going hard at a number of them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fluff_stack 12 Nov 2023

I just found this well though, and highly detailed write-up by on the matter by Yan Pritzker, Swan's CTO

https://twitter.com/skwp/status/1723444038932582414

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatdenier 12 Nov 2023

They said after you transferred out and coinjoin, they can still freeze your account. Read their statement

152 sats \ 0 replies \ @davidw 12 Nov 2023

‘Directly’.

So they won’t be flagging you if you send to an address and then from that address coinjoin.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @BITC0IN OP 11 Nov 2023

Related Fincen Thread: #305287

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 12 Nov 2023

I mean does this really affect the majority of swan users, first who sends coinjoin coins back to an exchange, only someone who doesn't know the history of the coins they acquired, and who send directly into a coinjoin coordinator anyway?

You would send it to your sparrow wallet first and then get your coins in order, seems like a lot of drama for nothing, if you're using KYC onramps you knew the deal long ago

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @usagi 11 Nov 2023

Nope, sorry. The title is misinformation. Precision is important here. The portion shown in the screenshot is about Swan's partners, not Swan itself. In fact, Swan goes on to say:

"Please be advised that depositing directly from, or withdrawing directly to, a mixing wallet may result in the termination of your account with our banking and custodial partners."

In other words, we're not going to try and stop you – but you do so at your own risk, because our partners may cancel you.

You can of course argue that practically speaking, there's no difference. I don't have strong opinions on that. But let the reader decide for themselves.

And here's a relevant tweet: https://twitter.com/BitPaine/status/1723383480715821263

428 sats \ 0 replies \ @davidw 12 Nov 2023

They also specifically used the word ‘directly’. I.e. 1 hop.

If that is not enough of a clue as to how far they are going to apply this rule, I don’t know what is.

They will continue to do the bare minimum and nothing more, I would imagine.

6 sats \ 12 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 11 Nov 2023

Frustrating as I use them for my DCAing. Might need to look for a better sovereign exchange and or process.

418 sats \ 5 replies \ @BITC0IN OP 11 Nov 2023

consider non kyc options https://bitcoiner.guide/nokyconly/

423 sats \ 3 replies \ @fluff_stack 11 Nov 2023

I sold an investment property this year, and had a little extra money. I learned real quick it is nearly impossible to acquire KYC-Free Bitcoin at any real scale. I LOVE Robosats, and Bisq; I do use them. But it's a TON of time and effort to acquire even $100 of KYC free BTC.

Also; what if you receive KYC Free BTC from somebody who did mix; now you've poisoned your well according to FinCen.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nemo 12 Nov 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @fluff_stack 12 Nov 2023

That would be stupid. So you are saying anybody who works their ass off to acquire 1 Whole Bitcoin, their only goal is to sell for Fiat.?

Brother flip your dollar bill over, look at it research it. That's some demonic shit.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 13 Nov 2023

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @sandagoriate 11 Nov 2023

thank you :)

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @brianh 11 Nov 2023

i've switched to River and haven't looked back. I had a ton of issues with Swan and got tired of reaching out to customer service for every little thing

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 11 Nov 2023

Yeah River is on the top of the list to check out. I’ve already been on SO many exchanges

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shyfire 11 Nov 2023

If the FinCEN stuff passes your beloved River will need to comply the same way Swan has. Stop using KYC services.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 12 Nov 2023

Curious about the issues that you had. I DCA with them for relatively small amounts and have never had an issue, but then again, I don't know what issue I could have.

153 sats \ 1 reply \ @brianh 12 Nov 2023

Had to file a ticket when I first created an account since I didn't see the option to make any purchases
Direct deposit purchase was locked for a week when it was supposed to only have been locked for 24 hours
Attempted to withdraw to an external wallet, but it took almost 3 weeks for it to finally go through
Currently have another withdrawal stuck for about two weeks...probably need to file another ticket

This was all in the span of two months or so. I've had no issues at all with River

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 12 Nov 2023

Oof. Yeah, with that experience, I can see how you'd have a bad taste in your mouth.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 11 Nov 2023

This seems like something they probably can't realistically get around and keep the lights on. Will be interesting to see if they start going above and beyond, e.g., closing your account if you withdraw sats from them and then coinjoin them, even if you don't try to send them back to Swan.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @OT 11 Nov 2023

That's disappointing, but not suprising.

Coinjoined bitcoin shouldn't go back into an exchange.

Hope they let the guy withdraw

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stagathy 11 Nov 2023

In my experience rejecting coinjoined deposits is not really something exchanges can truly enforce. They say that for compliance reasons but in reality one or two regular transactions after a coinjoin will mark the coins "clean".

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @JustinGoldberg 11 Nov 2023

I don't see how they can possibly even do this. Blocking a withdrawal to a different address type? Also most withdrawals are already queued into a single transaction to save on fees, which is a join of sorts.

Waiting to @DarthCoin to chime in with a relevant meme.

105 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 11 Nov 2023

Swan was over reacting on this one. They should just ignore it.

The FinCen are just "recommendations" in this moment, not a specific rule in place that these kind of companies must comply.
Swan, for far I know are just brokers, you can only buy BTC, not sell. That means every user could have always a new BTC address to withdraw. So I do not see why/where is this rush to implement restrictions for coinjoin wallets. Is meaningless.

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @fiatdenier 12 Nov 2023

Supposedly they check where you transfer your coin and if you coinjoin it later, they still freeze your account

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @fluff_stack 12 Nov 2023

Nope Swan doesn't give two F's about your mixing, they encourage it. However their Fiat Banking partner does care, as a matter of risk management against unregulated state agencies (FinCEN). A fiat bank doesn't give 2 shits about your bitcoin. That Fiat bank doesn't want to RISK (that word again) their entire business on a couple customers of a customer who the Communist/Statists have magically targeted as a "TerRoRisT!!"

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @JustinGoldberg 13 Nov 2023

thanks for the detailed explanation. Timothy May is right yet again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ez 12 Nov 2023

this

currently it's being explained as only direct deposits/withdrawals from/to mixing wallets are at risk but its trivial to expand for who knows how many hops in the future.

Also, it's not up to Swan to impose or retract these rules - it's not their infrastructure so they can't do much apart from shutting down.

It's still on them that this is affecting their customers privacy and they should take basic responsibility for their service design, especially considering all their troubles with custodians this year.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @JustinGoldberg 13 Nov 2023

the usa bitcoin companies who sell to the average joe (ie not River etc) is shooting themselves in the foot, because a huge majority of coins will have touched a coinjoin in the future. And then we will have payjoin which really ups the theoretic gamesmanship, to quote Jason Lowery.

At least Strike has their own infrastructure/custody.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @emmanuelrosa 11 Nov 2023

I don't know if this is new or not:

"Swan supports your right to privacy. We are actively lobbying against government regulations that require regulated financial institutions to report mixing activity. However, please be advised that depositing directly from, or withdrawing directly to, a mixing wallet may result in the termination of your account with our banking and custodial partners." -- https://help.swanbitcoin.com/hc/en-us/articles/17349552477079-How-do-I-Withdraw-Bitcoin-

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 11 Nov 2023

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