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I've opened a ~monero territory.
I kept wanting to post things about or tangential to monero and didn't know where to shove them.
Obviously ~bitcoin isn't the right place. And ~cryptocurrency didn't feel right, since for me, as a bitcoiner, monero is in a unique position. It doesn't seem to fit under the larger basket of cryptocurrencies. Many of which are scams/self-enrichment schemes. Ahem, XRP. Or just poorly implemented and pre-mined. Ahem, ETH.
I don't know a lot about monero actually, but I use it and like it and think it has a place in a bitcoiners arsenal in resisting government infringements and resisting pervasive privacy shit-holes like the chain anal companies. Even Coinbase has their own proprietary chain anal. It's disgusting. They don't want us to have privacy. And many people play right into their hands by handing over their ID card and picture of their face to get bitcoins when you can get it anonymously. But I digress.
Use the territory, or don't.
But if you do, then welcome.
I remember a discussion on Stacker News with @supertestnet where he argued that privacy on Monero is not at all obvious, and that on Lightning you can get equivalent privacy. One of his examples against Monero and its supposed privacy was this news: https://cointelegraph.com/news/monero-transactions-japanese-authorities-arrest-18-scammers
So my question: Given we have privacy tools on Bitcoin and particularly on the Lightning network, and given the discussion mentioned above, what are your use-cases for Monero or your reasons to favor Monero?
To be honest I am not at all qualified to discuss about Monero or privacy on Lightning, as I don't know enough about it, so I will stay neutral.
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Regarding the article. I'm not an expert (nor a criminal). I would just say, the criminals probably could have mitigated some of this. Also I'd probably say that the authorities would have tracked them down 10000x faster if they'd been using bitcoins instead.
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18 sats \ 1 reply \ @john_doe 7h
Fair enough. The government agency didn't want to disclose how they tracked them anyway if I remember correctly. For bitcoins though, I think it is still to be proven, I don't think there is any known case with Wasabi or Samurai where the police could track individuals.
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Several people have been traced through a Wasabi mix, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alcLdBsoDDg
That's a great question!
I would say a few things.
Number one, sender privacy with monero does have issues since you're hiding within only 16 people and someone with enough data can begin to eliminate some of these decoys to find you. This is being solved with an update to monero that increases the number of decoys from 15 to EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION MONERO HAS EVER DONE. It's a huge deal.
Number two, yes lightning has pretty good privacy quarantees possibilites if you use it right. Unfortunately not enough of these things (bolt 12 invoices, proxy node in invoice creation for receivers for bolt 11, trampoline, blinded routes, MPP) are defaults making it harder for the user to KNOW they're getting the privacy they want unless they dig in and research and implement and use it in the right way. Not to mention SO MANY just resort to using a custodian for lightning due to it's absolute SHIT UX.
Number three, the use case for monero is several fold. It's relatively simple to use since most of the privacy is base layer privacy and privacy by default which is HUGE. Opt in privacy IS NOT privacy IMO. Not to mention it's accepted by a lot of vendors on the web since the monero sent to the receiver has excellent fungibilty. Something that onchain bitcoin just simply DOES NOT HAVE. All bitcoins DO NOT resemble all other bitcoins... which is really a shame. And not everyone accepts lightning. So for sure, if given the option by a vendor to pay in onchain bitcoin or monero, opt for bitcoin (or use a proxy like boltz.exchange/swap if you're against using monero for some reason). OH! and monero txs are cheap. That's something else going for it. Whereas large lightning txs start to cost you. And purchasing inbound liquidity will cost you. And FCs will cost you. Lightning costs tend to add up when you do it in a self-custodial way.
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Regarding the absolute "SHIT UX" I don't really agree, it is still not 100% good for everything, but it works very well for all use cases I had where I buy something. I use Phoenix to buy things (drinks recently) so this may explain my divergence of opinion with you. If you use Blixt, I agree the UX is not great but this is for people who want to dive deeper into LN in my opinion. Try Phoenix only for a (far) better UX. About "Something that onchain bitcoin just simply DOES NOT HAVE. All bitcoins DO NOT resemble all other bitcoins", however I would totally disagree. Do you refer to exchanges which would for example refuse bitcoins coming from terrorists? If this is the case, this is not a fungibility issue but an issue with the exchange. If you have bitcoins supposedly from terrorists I am ok to buy some from you to show you it is fungible.
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If you have bitcoins supposedly from terrorists I am ok to buy some from you to show you it is fungible.
That's not the point though. The point regarding fungibility is NOT whether you CAN get someone to accept it. It is regarding the traceability of bitcoins. That yes, I CAN see it's history. I don't use exchanges either. And I mine bitcoins... So it's not an issue for me. The point I'm making is that monero is different in character. Even IF you had gotten it from an exchange, or terrorist, none of that would be clear to someone observing the chain.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @john_doe 3h
If on-chain, you feel traceability is an issue for your utxos, then use coinjoins. From my perspective at the protocol level it is fungible. A value in can later be converted as a value out. When people play with Bitcoin to search for "rare" coins, there are just adding new rules which are not on Bitcoin but exist in their world. Similarly even if banknotes have identifiers and hence can be traced this doesn't undermine it's fungibility, since in the real world nobody care in most cases. Fungibility issues may be raised among Monero people, but IMHO it is a weak argument. As a criticism UX of Lightning is more convincing (still LN UX gradually improves over time).
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Paying for fungibility via coinjoining which Samourai Wallet devs have literally been indicted for by the US DoJ seems silly when monero has this by default... And in a high miner fee environment it's even worse.
Try Phoenix only for a (far) better UX.
Yes, Phoenix has decent UX. Phoenix is a bit of an outlier... And it has privacy tradeoffs... So not really a great rebuttal.
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ACINQ, the company behind Phoenix, knows almost everything you do with that wallet. It's privacy cannot be compared to monero.
Good, now I can just mute the entire territory and forget that ever existed.
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35 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 23h
The good thing of SN, mute territories or individuals like you
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Whatever happened to that fluffy pony guy? Is he still in jail?
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I've never used monero and don't plan to, but I think diversity can be good for SN. Congratulations on the territory, time will tell if it was worth spending 50k precious sats! 🤠
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We'll see! thanks for making the traipse into my neck of the woods friend
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41 sats \ 1 reply \ @ryu 6h
Fucking ballsy creating this here. Enjoy the sats, and may this territory cultivate actual conversation.
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Thanks Ryu. I just had to mute one or two or three people and stacker.news became a lot more pleasant of a place.
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121 sats \ 4 replies \ @fiatbad 6 Feb
Digital scarcity becomes worthless if we allow ourselves to value anything outside of the 21 Million Sats in Bitcoin. By adding Monero, you just devalue yourself.
That said, I can respect people who believe a different digital scarcity is "better" than Bitcoin. For example, B-Cashers who own zero BTC. This group makes more sense than someone owning BTC alongside XMR.
There are tradeoffs to everything. BTC makes tradeoffs in order to be the best at what it does. This means we have to live with some negatives.... we should NOT go off and "have-our-cake-and-eat-it-to". You find a way to make Bitcoin work for you.
Don't own two different digital-scarcity tokens, and don't support others who do either. Pick one, and die on that hill. If you want to pick XMR, fine. I respect that choice. But if you own BTC "just in case" also, then you're being disingenuous and lack virtue.
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That's a good position I've never heard before and it does make sense, I own both but that's to provide liquidity, I can create offers on robosats or retoswap and generate yield while the market participants need on-ramps and off-ramps to move from one asset to the other
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Would you ever use cash to buy something privately despite the fact that the dollar is going to zero against bitcoin? Of course you would. Use monero is no different except it's digital cash. You can hold bitcoin and spend monero.
37 sats \ 2 replies \ @guts 23h
How will it be moderated? I'm open for a Monero territory but this could end up like some subs in Reddit using a territory to bash Monero.
For the Monero enthusiasts you are also welcome in Monero.town
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I think it will be like on nostr, there's already a vocal monero group there even if it's a maxi echo chamber, that's because monero is the only crypto where bashing it doesn't work, the actions speak louder than words and no bitcoiner has managed to make the black markets go back to using bitcoin, so it ends into the acceptance of "save btc, use xmr" or something
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As of now, it won't be, but that could change. Hopefully stackers won't be too big of dickheads. Other than Darth, but he can't help it. I just mute him as he doesn't contribute anything except memes. He's ceased to be relevant other than yelling at everyone like an old man on his from lawn.
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Congrats on founding the territory and opening up the battle of ideas. I don’t use monero and have no plans to but it will be interesting to see what topics are discussed here.
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Thanks a ton
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Yes yes yesss, it gets interesting
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:D I hope so.
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okay
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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @flat24 20h
Great initiative... I also consider Monero to be a highly effective and powerful tool, so much so that I can't leave it aside. I also use Monero and would like to learn more.
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Glad to have you. Just note that others may harass you. Make full use of the triple dots and mute option if need be. There are some shitheads on this platform that are anti-information.
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Alright!
Exciting.
I have a knee-jerk, no-touch, dismissal type of approach to Monero bros. I hope perhaps your posting here can meliorate this a little bit, perhaps outline the benefits/usages over and above bitcoin and how the existence of Monero assists Bitcoiners.
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Look out for my next post then!
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how do you acquire Monero? bisq or robosat?
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9 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 23h
Haveno
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bisq robosats or haveno/retoswap, or atomic swaps using unstoppable swaps or basicswapdex
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Thanks
I will look into swapping
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Based
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I was always wondering, if Monero has such a unique use case, isn’t it possible to just implement it with bitcoin. Like all these mixers and coin joins, why to have your own token? Well, You can even have it “under the hood” if you like, something similar to LBTC. Kinda not bitcoin, but still :) I hope you get my point:)
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Not sure I understand, but unfortunately bitcoin devs don't push for (or really desire) privacy on the base layer. Hence it has to be pushed to 2nd layers. That's a key difference between the two.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @guts 23h
No, monero has privacy and anonymity in layer 1
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2 sats \ 1 reply \ @Catcher 23h
I’m not really familiar with it, but for example - if I buy it on kyc exchange and then send it to you, can you track it back to the exchange?
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24 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 23h
No, if you buy Monero on a KYC exchange and then send it to me, I cannot track it back to the exchange. However, the exchange itself may still have records of your purchase.
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