Continuing the controversy about Muun
919 sats \ 59 comments \ @Hermit 8 Nov 2022 bitcoin
María want to sell Papusas in El Salvador and she also wants to pay her electric bills. She doesn't have much knowledge about technology.
What wallet would you recommend Maria to download to do this 2 things?
Do you think Maria would give a fuck if the payment is received via a submarine swap or via the purest way of lightning?
write
preview
related posts
678 sats \ 9 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
Yes. Maria would notice her "lightning" transaction costs more than her friends who used a real lightning wallet because Maria's transactions are on-chain. She will especially care because so many people were suggested to use this wallet that Muun txs drop from the mempool (they use sent lightning payments without the necessary on chain confirmation) if muun does not raise the fee high enough to stay in the mempool. Eventually, poor Maria has to choose between paying really high fees, or waiting for things to calm down so she can transfer to a real lightning wallet, which she probably doesn't even know about because if the Bitcoiners, the people she deferred her knowledge to in regard to the best wallet software for her use case, told her about it, she would have been using that in the first place.
reply
245 sats \ 8 replies \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
So what would you recommend her? Wallet of Satoshi? I do transfers with my node, Muun and WoS, and the fees are pretty similar.
With Muun I usually pay between 5 and 25 sats per transaction that is less than 1 cnt. Are those high fees theoretical after scalation or real based on your experience?
reply
325 sats \ 6 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
The fees are theoretical based on a country of people using the same wallet. I personally would be suggesting Phoenix wallet, knowing that I have to take the time to explain lightning addresses vs on-chain addresses, knowing I'll have to explain backup seed phrases, knowing I'll probably have to pay her first 10k sats so doesn't freak out at the initial fees that phoenix has.
reply
15 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 8 Nov 2022
Yeah, the channel opening fees can be quite dramatic in the beginning I think.
reply
20 sats \ 1 reply \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
But I'm saying that I believe strongly enough in this to pay the fees myself.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 8 Nov 2022
Yeah. Also good opportunity to explain more about how LN works.
reply
16 sats \ 2 replies \ @petertodd 8 Nov 2022
It's 1% iirc. I don't think that's dramatic. But that's me, a relatively wealthy Westerner...
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 9 Nov 2022
It's 1% with 3000 sats as minimum. It's not a lot in "absolute terms" but it's a lot if you just got onboarded to LN and the first thing you have to do is to pay 3000 sats which is more than for a on-chain tx.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @petertodd 9 Nov 2022
Non-custodial lightning is always going to cost at least an on-chain tx. That's just the inherent economics.
reply
70 sats \ 0 replies \ @petertodd 8 Nov 2022
Just use Phoenix wallet. It's a genuine lightning wallet and works well.
reply
237 sats \ 6 replies \ @fierillo 8 Nov 2022
the problem with Muun is they use 0-conf arquitecture to improve UX, this could be an issue if this practice extends in the ecosystem.
0-conf is basically trust to Muun.
Trust is a problem that Bitcoin want to fix.
If you want to use Muun pls switch off turbo channels.
reply
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @clownworld 9 Nov 2022
Turbo channels is not the problem with muun. The main problem with muun is that it is an on chain wallet always paying on chain fees, and using swap services to send ln transactions. This makes the fees large and unpredictable.
It also means that every ln payment is controlled by them. Turbo channels (in actual ln wallets) are just new channels that don’t have a confirmation on chain yet. So they only have a ten minute risk. After that everything is back to normal. I can take that risk to get a quick incoming transaction sometimes when I don’t have channel capacity.
reply
0 sats \ 4 replies \ @mrtechmaker 8 Nov 2022
is wallet of satoshi better ?
sorry got to learn...
reply
20 sats \ 1 reply \ @fierillo 8 Nov 2022
no. WoS is worse. i recommend Blixt wallet and OBW.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bashy 9 Nov 2022
Take my 20sats. OBW 👌🏻
reply
1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
You are going to use these wallets to do small transactions and hold small amounts of sats.
The best one, is the one who offers the best experience for you. If you have Muun, download WoS and send some SATs, then do the same with Phoenix, and then choose whatever works best for you.
If in the future they change the experience, you can easily change wallets, it won't cost you anything
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @benthecarman 8 Nov 2022
wallet of satoshi is completely trusted because it is custodial
reply
169 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eminem 8 Nov 2022
Sir I don’t think you understand the risks that come with Muun.
reply
245 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
What is the risk when you leave day a day. The money you make selling papusas you are going to spend it later in other goods and services.
I use both Muun and Wallet of Satoshi to do some small transactions here and there. My BTC are safe somewhere else. Is convenient and the risk for me is loosing a few thousand SATs.
You talk about the risks using Muun like your phone is going to be hacked and your identity stolen😂
reply
248 sats \ 4 replies \ @pillar 8 Nov 2022
In Muun, you pay a small price for not having more knowledge on self-custody.
In my humble opinion, but that seems tiny compared to the price you pay for using custodial services (counterparty risk, censor-ability, etc).
Isn't it better to have newbies on a "crappy", non-custodial wallet than to have them on a custodial platform?
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @l0k1 8 Nov 2022
Having done a fair bit of work training people to use technology, my answer is definitely Wallet of Satoshi. I used breez and after about 5 transactions I got a big stuck transaction. This would not be good for maria, it would ruin her whole week.
We are not talking about throwing kids on bikes without training wheels. We are talking about adults who are doing just fine with cash, relatively speaking. Putting them in the way of "crappy" things happening like stuck transactions is not worth it for them.
reply
99 sats \ 2 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
You'd recommend Wallet of Satoshi over Phoenix wallet? They're both about the same experience level, but Phoenix can't spend your money without you noticing (rehypothecation).
reply
129 sats \ 1 reply \ @l0k1 8 Nov 2022
I didn't know what the difference was. Another difference, and the reason why I run both on my android phone is that phoenix has auth but WoS doesn't.
I'm switching to Phoenix, thanks for the tip.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @clownworld 9 Nov 2022
Phoenix is completely noncustodial except for when you swap in or out from on-chain transactions, or it’s in the process of creating a new channel.
It’s by far the best noncustodial ln wallet now, unless you have your own node, but for newbies it is a bit hard to understand paying fees for new channels.
reply
15 sats \ 3 replies \ @mrtechmaker 8 Nov 2022
i use muun too.
i am not maria.
what should i do guys.
not clear about exact problem.
reply
255 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 8 Nov 2022
Learn about LN and see how Muun operates. They trade convenience for fees and bad LN integration. They are also currently afraid of upcoming bitcoin core changes because it puts their business model using 0-confs at a risk.
But don't be intimitated. You can learn at your own pace. I don't think Muun is in any immediate danger. Just long term would be better to switch to something else. I use Phoenix.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mrtechmaker 8 Nov 2022
what alternatives are better.
i shall withdraw from muun to the other wallet then.
yes i got to learn LN.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hermit OP 9 Nov 2022
Thats the thing! There is no problem. Muun uses a different system to pay for the lightning invoices than the standard, this system is convenient, but might have problems of scalation. So, if in the future it starts to have high fees or other problems, just stop using it, maybe Phoenix for other reasons starts having problems and if that happens you just change to other.
It Is the beauty of this system is easy and free to change. The important thing is to not be marry to any of them.
reply
17 sats \ 2 replies \ @ca 8 Nov 2022
She wouldn't, until the first massive custodial fraud/scandal happens in the ecosystem.
After that she would.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
It counts as massive custodial scandal, the fact that the currency of El Salvador complitely collapsed in the 90s, it disappeared and the country had to be dollarize and under the rules of 1 person at the FED in a foreign country?
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 8 Nov 2022
I assume he meant the Muun / zero-conf ecosystem. Don't know how your point relates to the discussion?
reply
100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn 8 Nov 2022
Babe wake up 👉🏻👈🏻
The new shitting on Muun thread just dropped 😏
reply
100 sats \ 9 replies \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
@ca @pillar
What is the custodial option for Maria? She is unbanked as the 70% of the population in El Salvador. What self custody? María wants to sell some Papusas and make $10 per day so she can spend $5 in the ingredients to sell more the next day and use the other $5 dollars to pay bills and food for the children.
Knowledge on self custody? She didn't have the luck on having a first world education to understand economics, routing and the differences between wallets.
María represents the 70% of the population. More than 5 billion people. What wallet would you recommend these people to live day a day.
reply
0 sats \ 8 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
She's gonna pay $5 for tx fees if she keeps using muun. I'd suggest Phoenix just to get her started, though she will likely use Chivo or Strike and take out dollars at the ATMs instead.
I will suggest a slightly better option than what I know she's already been suggested to use.
reply
15 sats \ 7 replies \ @iguano 8 Nov 2022
how do you suggest to use phoenix in this case? Pay to her 10000 sats and let her pay 3k sats for each transaction? or you would create for her a big channel on her first transaction and ask her to pay you back?
reply
10 sats \ 1 reply \ @clownworld 9 Nov 2022
No, no. It’s not 3k sats per transaction.
The first incoming tx has to be more than 10k and the fee for the new channel is 3k. That’s just to establish the channel.
After that, she pays only 1-5 sats for transactions until she needs a new channel. Then she pays the 3k fee for the channel.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 9 Nov 2022
No , no, it is 3k for transaction if she keep selling pupusas, remember we are using Maria's example here. With phoenix If I send you 10$ (~55k sats todays exchange rate) it will create a channel for you for ~52k with a little inbound capacity but not enough to receive another 10$. So if I send you 10$ 10 times, it will create 10 channels, charging you 3k sats each time (It charges the receiver). This is not good for Maria :(
reply
0 sats \ 4 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
Second one seems like a pretty good suggestion.
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @iguano 8 Nov 2022
I don’t know what to feel if that’s the solution for Bitcoin scalability
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
Yeah I don't think its perfect, I just think its the best solution we have right now. I think the best solution we're gonna end up with, is a grassroots solution believe it or not. I think we need wallet software that lets you do what phoenix does, but lets you control the fees and the default node it connects to and lets you package it with your company logo on it. We get more local community solutions that way and the lightning network truly becomes a network of networks like its supposed to be.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @iguano 8 Nov 2022
I think what kills Phoenix for the on-boarding is the 3000k sats minimum , the 1% is not that bad if they allow people to receive any amount, 0.5$ to open a channel without inbound liquidity is to much for Maria
reply
10 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 8 Nov 2022
Which is why I said that I believe in it so much that I'd pay the fee myself
Its also why I went into the technical minutia of how Phoenix should become a "Make your own company wallet" creation platform. Where every business that uses the system that Phoenix does will have its own fee rates and if that entity happens to be a community organizer trying to do a grassroots local economy like a Bitcoin beach, you and I know that fee rate would be 0
reply on another page
50 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 9 Nov 2022
I've used many wallets, including Muun.
Each one has pros and cons.
I like Muun for it's simplicity, it works well, and I haven't seen any large fees, to the contrary, free or very small fees.
Also it allows an extremely simple lightning to on-chain transfer of funds.
It's also non-custodial.
I don't know why many people are so against muun.
You can use other wallets as well for other use cases. You don't have to only use Muun.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hermit OP 9 Nov 2022
Thank you! I think this is the wisest comment in the whole post.
People are against for how payments are process in the back end. The system how is now built might not scale well, but it can also evolve.
And as you said, in the moment you stop liking it, you can move on and stop using it.
reply
10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Hermit OP 8 Nov 2022
For the comments looks like you use your Phoenix, Muun or WoS to keep there your wealth and care so much about security.
In the past using cash, you had imagine $2000 at home. When you go out you might put a three $20 bill in your wallet to spend.
Where you thinking of that wallet about how secure will be to not loose it? Or did you care more for the wallet to be cool, and functional? What is the best user experience for the other 5 billion people in the world?
I don't have my Muun or WoS even backed. If I loose my phone is like I loose my wallet. I loose that $20 bill for not putting attention to what I was doing.
But make sure the liquidity in my node or my wealth is save.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @xekcc 9 Nov 2022
Muun just works It also seems to me that people here are very nerdy and don't talk much to normal people cause if they did, they would understand why UX is of paramount importance for mass adoption. I tried Phenix and couldn’t withdraw few hundred sats from a game. I don’t understand why and don’t want to spend hours of my time to research the problem because again muun just works and I got my sats in seconds.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @farbod 9 Nov 2022
Maria is paying hell lot more fees
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @farbod 9 Nov 2022
Maria is paying hell lot more fees
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bashy 9 Nov 2022
Would Maria do an easy wallet recovery with muun compared to - let's say - Phoenix wallet?
Common just see how muun deals with seed, it's sh*t from the start
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hermit OP 9 Nov 2022
You don't need a to keep seed when you don't have much funds to recover. Do you think the most of the population understand channel creation?
Deposits of 10,000 SATs, with 1% fee and 3000 sats minimum? Even if you don't need to do anything the first reaction is what tha F is this talking about.
Phoenix is great. Muun offers the simplest and easier experience. I won't catalogue it as shit at all.
As Elisabeth Stark says: Bitcoin for Billions not for Billionaires
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @yoshi 9 Nov 2022
If i send bitcoin to a bluewallet from XYZ Exchange via lightning, how else can i move it to my cold storage bitcoin wallet without Muun?
reply
0 sats \ 2 replies \ @clownworld 9 Nov 2022
Fixedfloat.com
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @yoshi 9 Nov 2022
This seems like a worse experience. I have to sign up for an account?
Current process;
  1. Withdraw BTC from exchange via lightning to Muun
  2. Send from Muun to BTC cold storage
No sign up. This process currently takes me <2 mins. Minimal fees compared to sending BTC directly to cold storage from exchange.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @clownworld 11 Nov 2022
You don’t need an account, but it is a pain to exchange ln btc for on chain btc. But you said you were using bluewallet, which can’t transfer from lightning to on chain.
It you want to withdraw via lightning and then send on chain, you can use muun, if it works, or Phoenix wallet. Bluewallet isn’t good for that use case.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @joko 8 Nov 2022
bitcoin beach
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0268486dc4 8 Nov 2022
Helped family set up Muun because the onchain vs. lightning abstraction was desirable. Tried to pay them a few times from my well connected personal node. Rarely do I have a route to them. It's embarassing.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @cokyjgz 8 Nov 2022
Muun.Hmmm!! NP so far
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @iguano 8 Nov 2022
Sadly, I would recommend maria a custodial solution like WoS or BBW for daily transactions. And Muun as saving account... I know, is a fucking mess right now.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @thrown 8 Nov 2022
She should use Breez because it has a point of sale store system built in.
And you explain that opening channels with customers are like long term relationships with them.
Right? (Unless the breez channels close immediately)
reply