Will SN Go Back To A Custodial Wallet Option? \ stacker news ~meta

pull down to refresh

Will SN Go Back To A Custodial Wallet Option?

2392 sats \ 80 comments \ @siggy47 9 Apr meta

SN has done a great job over the past year creating the option to attach wallets. This of course was made necessary by the grossly unfair "regulation by prosecution" environment in the US.

Now that Phoenix has returned to the US, is it time for SN to revive its custodial wallet?

It's no secret that this wallet transition involved a ton of work. The option to remain non custodial could still be given to stackers.

It's also no secret that the mess of the past year cost SN stackers and engagement. It might make sense to take advantage of the more friendly environment in the US.

view all related items

1269 sats \ 15 replies \ @anon 9 Apr

Adoption’s not coming from going back to custodial wallets, or convincing your neighborhood barista to accept bitcoin. it’s coming from building more ways to actually use Bitcoin on the web. That means ironing out the rough spots in non-custodial tools and making the whole experience smoother—for users and for devs. By sticking to core principles and refining the non-custodial side, SN’s laying the groundwork for real adoption—stuff future apps can plug into without legal headaches or compromising on sovereignty.

Downside is this could end up helping future builders more than it benefits SN financially.

Even though Gigi likes to clown on car crash content, I’d love to see someone like @koob —who gets human psychology and game theory—build a lightweight non-custodial Bitcoin app that actually goes viral and hits the mainstream.

105 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer 9 Apr

Adoption’s not coming from going back to custodial wallets, or convincing your neighborhood barista to accept bitcoin. it’s coming from building more ways to actually use Bitcoin on the web.

I second this. Normies don't care if your solution is most utopian (non-custodial, decentralized, traceless).

All they care is:

"Am I able to use this friction-less" - ease of use,

"Are you satisfying my need for instant gratification" - dopamine high,

"Are you adding more pleasure to my life" - making things intuitive.

10 sats \ 10 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

I'm not sure why the dig on Gigi is here, though maybe I'm not up on the latest gossip. In the speech @anon is referring to, he said a lot that jives with the ethos of SN. My take was that he is aligned with being anti-attention economy, and is in favour of internet native-money-payments to coordinate the future of an information-economy. Imho, nostriches, in general, seem to be paddling upstream in many ways... my pleb take. For anyone curious, the speech being referred to was posted on SN #927206

174 sats \ 9 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

His video was great, until he said "you can't fake zaps" which is completely wrong, see #928481. But nostriches don't seem to care since nobody replied with a good answer to my question. Someone said he meant "you can't fake sats" and then mentioned nutzaps/cashu as the solution where mints can literally print fake sats ... but see the thread for yourself:

This issue with zaps results in either fake zaps (so you can't use them for anything interesting, else they will be gamed, so no, zaps on nostr are not a solution to the attention economy) or only zap receipts from trusted LNURL providers show up in clients.

I recently learned that apparently clients already decided that they will only show zap receipts from trusted LNURL providers so if you're running your own node, you're a second-class citizen on nostr. Nostriches just don't seem to care about non-custodial usage (it's literally embracing cashu as we speak) and yet people like Gigi declare nostr as the winning protocol when it's more like this:

105 sats \ 4 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

I'm not technically inclined enough to catch these nuances but that made sense the way you explained it.

I tend to think along the lines of what is written here, #776163, where relay data permanence and the notion of "decentralization" are called into question wrt nostr. Also, discoverability is unintuitive at best.

winning protocol

Oh yeah - there is like an army of influencers out there shilling it like crazy while I've not ever seen much tangible proofs of what could ever warrant this level of enthusiasm.

That said, I do find it very encouraging that these days the advantages afforded by emergent tech tends to be inverted¹, compared to the past where it was the government and their agencies doing the r/d (think internet, tor etc..) Protocols being developed by ordinary programmers, seen from this lens, seems an improvement.

As a user of their protocol, I have my gripes, although I try to stay away from having a strong opinion, since there's lots going on that I don't see/understand. Tor network is almost 30 years old and is neither widely appreciated, nor very well understood by the mainstream, although it certainly has its use cases....

see the post I shared yesterday by Andrej Karpathy here #937619 ↩

305 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

just keep an open mind and don't drink the kool-aid. influencers are going to influence, no matter how their 1s and 0s are transmitted.

btw, also don't trust me, consider me highly biased since I work on SN

51 sats \ 2 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

This is a very based take.

view all 2 replies

78 sats \ 2 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

will only show zap receipts from trusted LNURL providers so if you're running your own node, you're a second-class citizen on nostr.

Oh yea - and fuck that. If I can't use my node no thanks.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 9 Apr

Just give Strike your personal information so you can use Primal's wallet what's the problem haha

23 sats \ 0 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

Well - you see, with custodial solutions you end up with regulations that make them unavailable within certain imaginary limitations defined "nation states" So.... yea. Couldn't be bothered anyway

reply on another page

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @janetyellen 10 Apr

Janet likey!

36 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 9 Apr

I'm glad the work was put in and will continue to use non-custodial wallet.

But a lot of UI and clutter is introduced to the interface to delineate between CC's and sats. I think just making everything sats, and having custodial as an option, would still streamline and improve the overall experience. Especially for new users, who may find some of these concepts too overwhelming to think about.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 11 Apr

That’s what I would lean towards as well. They can basically toggle cowboy credits on and off depending on the legal situation.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 9 Apr

Thanks for this thoughtful reply.

197 sats \ 10 replies \ @BlokchainB 9 Apr

Wow this is a good question! I never even thought about the impact this may have on Stacker news.

My idea is this. If the VCs pressure a return on investment and they want to see outrageous growth I think it will come back.

If the VCs are cool with never returning a profit then I think it stays the status quo. The growth will be painfully slow but will be true to the ethos of owning your own money and not getting rugged by SN/government.

Overall stacker news needs a business model that is self sustaining. From what I can tell they are still operating at a loss. Until that changes anything can happen.

75 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined 11 Apr

Good take. I also think it’s better to be on the slow organic growth path.

35 sats \ 8 replies \ @BlokchainB 11 Apr

Yeah but will VC feel that way.

k00b may have open sourced the code but SN books are still closed. We have no clue what the SN burn rate is and how much runway SN has before it has to shut down due to bankruptcy.

Growth is needed for this site to be economically viable.

73 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined 11 Apr

I suspect we'll see some bigger swings, if we get close to that point.

As is, we have some proof of concept. Just the existence of territories turning an accounting profit, is evidence that there will be demand for running territories. That'll be all the more true, once k00b finishes weening us off his reward pool subsidy.

37 sats \ 6 replies \ @BlokchainB 11 Apr

That will be the true test of who stays and who goes. I was on SN well before the subsidy started. Lot less sat milkers were around. Plus accounting profit of a few sats isn’t really moving the needle for people to buy and operate one on mass

62 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined 11 Apr

I know the accounting profits are small, but it's important that they even can be positive. When we were continuing on month after month, with no profitable territories, that was casting doubt on the entire project.

Have you noticed much difference in who has remained since the subsidy was cut in half?

view all 5 replies

536 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 9 Apr

Well Phoenix isn't a custodial wallet so its not an apples to apples comparison. Did Bank of Australia come back to US app stores? They're doing business as "Wallet of Satoshi". That would be a more apples to apples comparison.

I think Phoenix's bolt 12 should be supported as a withdraw option. Right now only Phoenixd is supported.

I also think users that don't have attached wallets could have their sats go to a (per profile of course) lightsats.com link where they can go through that beautiful onboarding to get set up with potentially their first lightning wallet and withdraw their sats.

291 sats \ 13 replies \ @carlosfandango 9 Apr

How permanent will any easing of the regulatory environment be? Better non-custodial BUT I recognise the limitations to attracting new people.

75 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 9 Apr

Yes, who knows whether this will change every few years? That's why I think the non custodial option should remain. As it stands, SN could enjoy at least 3 years of easy onboarding. There isn't a real downside I can see.

194 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

3 years of increasing custodial lightning from 90% to 99% so when SHTF we can all go back to ask for permission to use our money holding hands?

25 sats \ 4 replies \ @justin_shocknet 9 Apr

easing

There was never a crackdown to begin with, the panic was baseless and weak.

No American should reinstall Phoenix or WoS after that cowardly stunt, they don't share your values.

5 sats \ 3 replies \ @carlosfandango 9 Apr

The implied threat is always more effective. Self-policing makes the real police job soooo much easier.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 9 Apr

It's effective at smoking out the rats and all who would let them back in vs. having them exterminated.

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @optimism 9 Apr

Would you agree that non-custodial with Apple/Goog's permission isn't fully non-custodial anyway, and needs caution?

IIRC your own app provides a fully functional PWA and thus ultimately does not rely on permissions?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 9 Apr

Mostly, but to be logically consistent I have to be even darker about it and say that any app on iOS or Google'd Android is effectively compromised. Even your desktop or laptop keyboard, as long as you type on it with microphone range of those phones, is having its keystrokes logged.

Correct that we host a PWA version or your can run it yourself locally from Github. Next version we'll probably push to F-Droid (I haven't been able to get through Google's retarded KYC process to get it in the app store)

reply on another page

7 sats \ 5 replies \ @Cje95 9 Apr

Based on legislation moving through the House and Senate you can start planning years in the future.

22 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

Based on the past weeks, the US gov is already falling apart

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cje95 9 Apr

It’s not as bad as it looks. Funding is going until end of Sep which was huge I should add I would have bet they would have punted to the summer again. The big thing right now is DOGE and the headlines Elon keeps making but he will be leaving soon.

Considering the cuts are already going into effect across the bored and Department/Agency plans to reorg have been turned in there are not as many big things left. Based on what I’m seeing and hearing it is highly likely over the next 10 days there will be a slew of trade deals cut and the economy will bounce back. The one hold out is going to be China but I’m not expecting that to drag on more then a handful of months. Given manufacturers have been moving into other countries the last few years China has to be careful more don’t because they already have the huge unemployment issue.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 9 Apr

If only

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 9 Apr

Wanna buy $8T USTs?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 9 Apr

Hardly!

77 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 9 Apr

After all that hard work, l dont see them going back. It jus ttakes some growing pains for the og sn users, but for the new sn users, it will be the normal. Everyone has to get on the train or be left behind.

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 9 Apr

Personally I would never go back. I also need to research @ek's points re money transmitter laws again. It has been awhile. I was really looking at it as a transition aid for newbies and a crutch for the lazy.

182 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 9 Apr

I feel a few people here have gotten wallets just to grab sats. I dont think there is anything wrong with the CC system. I havent yet found a reason to get one. SN works perfectly fine without one. Just to clarify, l am not saying you are one of the people making a sat grab.

70 sats \ 0 replies \ @sox 9 Apr

I always regarded the switch to non-custodial as part of adhering to Bitcoin's principles. This is kind of a revolution at work and as such I would like for SN to never switch back to custodial.

IMO, it's okay for me if some people want to give up part of their freedom to make their life a bit easier, like attaching wallets maybe with external services, but not in SN's name.

108 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 9 Apr

Non custodial with NWC is working pretty well for me so far. Maybe we do need to get more users on here and custodial would be an easier path.

Meh, either way for me.

96 sats \ 0 replies \ @LibertasBR 9 Apr

The option of attaching the wallet of our preference is much better.

1157 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

No.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @sox 9 Apr

Love it. Here, take my money.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 9 Apr

That's what I like! A direct answer 😀

1180 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 9 Apr

Longer answer: SN would still be considered a money transmitter if it were to integrate a custodial wallet and thus we would still have to pay a ton of money for licences per state and the privilege to KYC everyone who wants to use it.

We will provide people with the option to use custodial wallets like Strike or ZBD but we will not be the service provider. We don’t want your personal information but you will be free to give it to someone else.

36 sats \ 0 replies \ @kurszusz 10 Apr

I definitelly think the non custodial option is a better option!

52 sats \ 9 replies \ @Cje95 9 Apr

This would address the cursed CC that seems to have pushed some people away

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

#938893

26 sats \ 7 replies \ @Cje95 9 Apr

Yeah but I'd like to not have 7k CC and climbing 😂

146 sats \ 5 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

Use it to post more, earn rewards and receive p2p zaps

83 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 9 Apr

The real hack is to use it to zap more and get more rewards sats.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @unschooled 9 Apr

👀

view all 2 replies

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cje95 9 Apr

I try but ya know work is a hitch 😂

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Riberet 9 Apr

Hahaha I feel you

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Car 9 Apr

Why? The technology is only getting easier. Long term custodial wallets will actually be the ones losing users.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @carter 9 Apr

I will say at least anecdotally getting people setup with wallets has been a barrier into me getting people to participate

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 9 Apr

No. It is not wrong to have 2 types of accounts: attached or not attached.

And I will not call "self-custodial" an attached wallet. Most of stackers are using another custodial accounts so nothing burger in terms of "sel-custianship".

CCs are just fine for new users. And for me. Using CCs is even better: you never have to use your sats to post, so you stack more.

Reminder:

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 9 Apr

Yes but only for newbies. Turn off the custodial option after x amount of time.

Either that or SN should partner with a wallet provider and prompt attach wallet at sign up and it takes users through the steps automatically. Of course you can still give them an option to add their own or not add one and use cowboy credits as well.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 9 Apr

CCs are shitcoins. The laws and politics that force/d their use are/were obstruction of Bitcoin and freedom of choice. The barrier to entry is now too high...when you (were forced to) limit participation to the less than 0.1% of the global population that have enough pre existing knowledge of LN to join SNs now. If we mostly only get hardcore Bitcoiners joining, there may be insufficient critical mass for exponential growth. Can understand the huge investment that was made to create the systems to enable CCs and that would be hard to put aside, but what are the new user and participation volume growth figures prior to implementation and post?