Cowboy credits ARE so that stackers with insufficient lightning setups can participate on SN
Cowboy credits ARE because real lightning payments, and especially lightning application connections, are not foolproof - far from it
Cowboy credits ARE created by stackers zapping or being zapped with insufficient lightning setups or by stackers buying them
Cowboy credits ARE rapidly decaying into reward sats and territory revenue every time they're spent - they have a half life of two zaps when zapped (only 70% of a CC survives each zap), and decay immediately into reward sats and territory revenue when spent on posts, comments, boosts, donations, or poll votes
Cowboy credits ARE NOT there because SN wants you to have CCs instead of sats
Cowboy credits ARE NOT created by SN as part of some supply schedule
Cowboy credits ARE there only to deal with the insufficiency of lightning, lightning services, and SN's and stackers' inability to leverage those lightning services
Cowboy credits ARE bridging the gap between where lightning and lightning literacy are today and where we believe it will be in the future
Cowboy credits ARE effectively SN gift credits that SN accepts as if they were sats, in the place of sats
why do CCs existwhy do CCs exist
CCs exist to accommodate stackers when things outside of SN's control aren't present or fail. That is, CCs exist for situations where stackers:
- don't have an external lightning wallet
- haven't attached one or don't want to attach one
- where their external lightning wallet is unavailable
- where their external lightning wallet fails to make or receive a payment
- or SN has a bug, or inadequacy, that prevents an external lightning wallet from making or receiving a payment
In such situations, to still allow participation on SN, we allow stackers to spend and receive CCs which can be spent on activity that will earn them sats through daily rewards.
CCs do NOT exist because SN wants you to have CCs instead of sats. They exist because SN cannot legally transmit custodial sats to other people on your behalf, lightning is not foolproof, and most stackers won't be able to participate on SN consistently otherwise.
where do CCs come fromwhere do CCs come from
CCs are created:
- spontaneously, when the sender or receiver of a zap cannot make a real lightning payment
- that is:
- the sender doesn't have a means of sending bitcoin via lightning with an attached wallet
- the receiver doesn't have a means of receiving bitcoin via lightning with an attached wallet
- either the sender's or receiver's attached wallet is unavailable
- SN has a bug prevents it from reaching the sender's or receiver's attached wallet
- or SN has a limitation where it can't use real lightning, like in the case of a post that splits zaps to multiple stackers
- that is:
- or when a stacker buys them
CCs are NOT created by SN as part of some supply schedule. They are created by the actions of stackers - either by not having lightning setups or by buying CCs directly. If all stackers had reliable lightning setups for both sending and receiving, and connected them to SN, CCs would cease to exist.
won't CCs just accumulate to infinity?won't CCs just accumulate to infinity?
No.
Every time a CC is zapped, 30% of it is put in the rewards pool and territory revenue which will be paid out as sats.
Every time a CC is spent to post, comment, boost, donate, or vote in a poll, 100% of it is put immediately in the rewards pool and territory revenue which will be paid out as sats.
Once a CC is created, which only happens as the result of actions by other stackers, it goes out of existence fast. e.g. If Alice has 100 CCs, then zaps Bob 100 CCs, Bob receives 70 CCs and the rewards and territory revenue pool increase by 30 sats. If Bob then zaps Carol his 70 CCs, Carol gets 49 CCs and the rewards and territory revenue pool increase by 21 sats, and so on. Alternatively, if Carol posts in a territory that cost 49 CCs to post in, the rewards and territory revenue pool will increase by 49 sats and the 100 CCs we started with are gone forever.
i have attached wallets, why am I getting CCs as zapsi have attached wallets, why am I getting CCs as zaps
There are many reasons why this happens (which we will improve at communicating over time):
- you are receiving zaps as part of a zap forward/prism/split on a post
- the sender doesn't have a sending wallet attached
- the sender's attached wallet is unavailable
- your attached receiving wallet is unavailable
- we predict that paying your attached receiving wallet will fail, be too expensive, or take too long to settle
- the sender has a high sending dust limit (they've indicated in their settings that if a zap is less X sats, they want to send CCs)
- you have high receiving dust limit (you've indicated in your settings that if a zap is less X sats, you want to receive CCs)
- SN has a bug that makes it believe one of the above is true
i have attached wallets, why am I sending CCsi have attached wallets, why am I sending CCs
There are many reasons why this happens (which we will improve at communicating over time):
- you are zapping a post that has a forward/prism/split
- your attached sending wallet is unavailable
- the receiver's attached wallet is unavailable
- we predict that paying the receiver's attached wallet will fail, be too expensive, or take too long to settle
- you have a high sending dust limit (you've indicated in your settings that if a zap is less X sats, you want to send CCs)
- they have high receiving dust limit (they've indicated in their settings that if a zap is less X sats, they want to receive CCs)
- SN has a bug that makes it believe one of the above is true
i hate you, you're a scammer, how do i protest CCsi hate you, you're a scammer, how do i protest CCs
We aren't going to be custodial again anytime soon, so if that's what you're hoping to change, you should leave and let us cook and eat without you.
Otherwise, the best solo protest is running a node, opening a well balanced/maintained direct channel to SN, and attaching it to avoid every CC that might possibly come your way or you might possibly send.
The next best thing is using a third party custodian, but your protest will likely be less effective in the long run, because now neither you or SN control the availability of that third party custodian, the fees to and from it, and you might receive CCs as a result of actions of that third party custodian.
If you're so serious you want to help other stackers protest CCs too, here are some ideas:
- run a custodial lightning account service for them and provide attachment mechanisms SN supports. LNBits might be the easiest way to do that. When Alby Hub has subaccounts, that will be a great solution too.
- write guides and help stackers out as they have issues with lightning and attaching stuff. Help get them off CCs. That'll teach us a lesson so good.
i don't hate you, i don't think you're a scammer, but i think attached wallets and CC communication/UX needs to improvei don't hate you, i don't think you're a scammer, but i think attached wallets and CC communication/UX needs to improve
We agree with you. Did you think we are stopping here? Help us learn what to improve, avoid wailing ill-informed nonsense if you can (I know some of you are nontechnical but most of you write and think better than average so check your shit please), and we'll do our best to integrate your ideas into our plans.
"won't CCs just accumulate to infinity?"
If I receive CCs daily but never zap them because I have an attached wallet wouldn't this be the case?
This is why I am donating them to rewards pool to turn them back into sats.
You're right. If you somehow end up spending fewer CCs than you receive, they will accumulate. For those of us with attached wallets, you could adjust your dust limits to discharge more of them in small zaps.
Personally, I have 7 CCs right now. I'd guess the folks that have so many that they're suffering a cowboy credit cognitive crisis aren't very big zappers/spenders. They're getting less assmilk per squeeze I'd guess and are parched.
In a surprise upset, this is now my favorite k00b comment, which is remarkable given the competition over the years.
it's incredibly poetic. Three levels of funzies with the assmilk metafor
The visuals.
People complaining about CCs.
Definitely. Only those will moan about hoarding CCs who don't like to spend by zapping on other's posts and comments.
ROFL beautifully put
I think eventually most stackers will attach wallets.
Hoarding CCs is like hoarding testnet bitcoin 😂😂😂😂😂
Nice
They’ll still get spent when you post and comment.
Posting fee defaults to CCs?
That's my understanding.
Post I just made used sats but I didn’t have 69 CCs as I donated them all away. I will have to check that tomorrow.
Did you see my post btw?
Sort of. I saw the post, but couldn't see the tweet.
Do you guys like the reporting I did on Black Monday event here
#839489 ?
Do you want me to do such reporting of events in future?
yes was good
Yes, I enjoyed reading it when you did.
I like the idea of it. For the time being, I can't see any of the embedded tweets. That's a problem on my end, though.
Oh. That’s odd. Anyways, 49ers reporter said 49ers will not bring Sorensen back as DC but hope to retain him at another position.
I haven't been able to view tweets since I switched computers.
You should see it spends CCs first when you comment. Posting has the same behavior.
You can disable your wallet temporarily and it will exclusively send CC. It's just a check box on the settings. You can send them directly back out into circulation.
I think after a while, most people won't care if they get zapped CC's, there's enough ways to use them that it shouldn't matter.
Good idea.
They exist because SN cannot legally transmit custodial sats to other people on your behalf
end of discussion
edit: you only gave us 12 months warning, plus an additional 60 days after Nov 5, the initial launch date
oh, so the feds confess that sats = money now?
cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
I will buy your cowboy credits
edit: or donate your cowboy credits to the rewards pool
Surely I get better paid by selling them manually, even at prices like 1:2 or 1:3?
you can post an offer on the ~AGORA, 1:2 is a good deal!
I won't buy your cowboy credits
@k00b trying to answer all of our dumb questions:
HAHA good meme anyway on a completely unrelated note, I have some dumb questions for ya @k00b:
First off, I come in peace! No problems at all with this, just a few questions that I'm sure you've answered 1,413 times in the last 4 minutes alone.
Part 1:
Let me know if the following are correct:
Part 2 (less to do with cowboy credits):
First of all, thanks for an awesome app, I appreciate all the work that’s gone into making this a place where good posts and comments are the only things that are truly incentivized. You guys have done an awesome job with that.
Second - do you foresee any further changes to territory ownership costs?
The part 1 is all correct
A+No immediate plans to change them further. We'll broadcast a plan to change it should we have one.
ah wait hey @k00b, I have one follow up on "If everyone had a lightning wallet that could send and receive, the zap button will send real sats from wallet to wallet"
Assuming those conditions are true and I have a CC balance, when I zap, am I zapping CCs that are being sent as real sats to the recipient's external wallet?
If you're sending CCs, they receive CCs.
If you're sending sats, and they can receive sats, they receive sats.
If you're sending sats, and they cannot receive sats, they receive CCs.
SICK
thanks dude
I hate to sound like a dick, but all the sats you get on SN are based on donations from SN or other users, so a lot of the complaing comes off as "I'm not getting free things the way I want to get them"
CC's shouldn't be causing this much backlash.
Correct. People think they're working here and they should be paid. But in fact, all the zaps are donations to you.
Ask me; for all the donation I get in Sats, there's a straight tax of 30% in my country, I've been escaping them every year though.
nah, they're redistributional paybacks for the 30% take off the donations I was given when someone zapped me for content.
Good idea. I know Alby hub already offers sub accounts. Do these lack the necessary attachment methods right now?
Is it an uncle jim type subaccount with its own balance? I didn't realize.
Yes. There are different types of sub accounts. One enables a lightning address.
https://guides.getalby.com/user-guide/alby-account-and-browser-extension/alby-hub/app-store/subaccounts-friends-and-family
I was looking at it last night. I set this up for my Kratom friend initially.
I'm not sure how it would function for zapping, but receiving will be fine, I think.
@siggy47 there is actually one type of subaccount, it uses "isolated" NWC Connection. Once you plug it to Alby Account as the backend / funding source, then you are gettinng a Lightning Address to that subaccount
Yes. That is the one that requires the sub to create an Alby account, I think? Would there be a few for that?
Yes, one needs Alby Account to get the Lightning Address, but you can rawdog it and link Alby Go or Extension or other apps directly to the Hub, bypassing any getalby servers ;)
Good solution
Excellent. I'll be able to hook up my wife someday then.
😀
Seriously, if you can make it work I'd be willing to test out a sub for a stacker. I'm not sure if there's a practical limit on how many subs can be handled on one node?
Probably mostly a matter of managing liquidity well. All those invoices eventually take up a lot of disk space and can make restarting lnd slow too. SN's lnd node takes 10 minutes to start.
@supratic and others wrote several guides but many stackers just ignore them or don't even bother testing.
I didn't see SN putting the links to those guides in the "connect your wallet" page.
here they are some guides I've been writing to invite people to do so:
Not enough? There are much more resources collected in this post #835262
Yeah I never understand why people don't even try these two damn simple scenarios:
They don't even need to sync the whole BTC blocks.
Yes, for the LNbits they need to open the port 443 and have a domain, but for an Alby hub with a private node you do not need anything else to start, just some sats to buy some inbound channels.
BECAUSE THEY ARE LAZY
anyone without a LN wallet attached shouldn't have a zap button next to his name
this whole cowshit credits only ruins the experience for the people who matter, the ones who bothered to spend 2 mins to attach a wallet
coinos takes 10 clicks, theres no excuse
well, those lazy b can now zap ccs!
Pardon my ignorance if it's mentioned somewhere in this post or the comments (I went through all of them, and I've read other similar posts on this too,) but since yesterday I've not been able to zap anyone (post or comment.) It says "zap on post/comment failed", then it gives me option to retry, but it still doesn't work.
My default zap is set to 50 - I have enough CCs and more than enough sats. I've tried it on multiple posts and comments and I keep getting the same error.
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone else experienced this?
Check your wallet logs. It sounds like your sending wallet is failing.
It was definitely my ignorance. Somehow, I thought it would use the CCs/sats in my SN acct first before looking at the sending wallet. I'm a little bit fuzzy on that part still, but I detached the sending wallet for now till I figure this out. Looks like my last zap worked. Thank you!
This stuff is tricky and we have a lot of work to do on our end to make it easier on you.
All the help and the wealth of information is much appreciated. The responsiveness on here is hard to beat (especially since it's useful info - for the most part.)
Additionally to what you said: Most stackers weren't withdrawing their sats when they still could for the sake of a circular economy anyway, so CCs behave just the same as custodial sats for most.
If half the effort spent complaining about them were instead used to understand them, they would see it's actually a pretty good solution for the situation we're in as you explained here.
Imho, most of them are confused.
Yeah, those who didn't like to spend by zapping are the ones complaining. They see a real cut in their pays.
I don't withdraw them because I want to convert them easily into CCs when is need it.
SN is awesome. By far my favorite place on the internet.
I was waiting for this post, thank you very much for clearing up all my doubts and sorry for the bad.
I actually don't get it. My CC balance hasn't gone up like some others have complained.
Yes, at one point I've got to 350 CCs but they vanished ass soon as I zapped something.
I really don't find any difference. It's all the same for me.
we dont need cowshit credits
this whole shitcoin purpose is to help lazy people that dont bother setup a ln wallet
People are lazy, especially when they are new to a product/website/ecosystem. I view CCs more like an onramp for newcomers than a destination for lazy people.
The CC do help newcomers and reduce the barrier of entry to post and participate in the community. More experienced users can just use an attached wallet. I think it was a good call, and will help SN adoption. It is also good you have a critical and informed userbase, which obviously you do!
just make posts free for newcomers
setting up a coinos LN wallet takes 10 clicks, there's no excuse man...
Coinos is relatively new and who knows how long it'll be around.
just make posts free for newcomers/newbies
we should be helping them to setup their own LN wallets, instead of promoting cowshit credits on them...
give us an option to disable cowshit credits feature as a whole
i do not want my sats to be converted to cowshit in any situation
i do not want to receive cowshit
if the user does not have LN attached, my real sats should go straight to the rewards pool
k00b, you are doing a good job.
Dont let their frustration ruin your day.
Everyone can still use SN, there is no big deal.
People just need to put their big boy pants on and spend CCs if they get them when their attached wallet doesnt work.
Thanks this really helps . I appreciate all the loop hopes you guys are jumping through to keep us zapping real zaps
The last few days have been kind of stressful, but that's just because I'm absolutely not tech savvy. It's definitely been a journey so far.
Keep up the good work!
For some really strange reason, I don’t see any difference between CC and sats at this range. We will get the sats at the end of the day or whenever. Who cares one way or another?
consider this: you have bitcoin on mainnet and bitcoin on testnet.
CCs are like bitcoin on testnet. Are worthless on mainnet (in fact you cannot use testnet bitcoin on mainnet) but are useful on testnet.
I see!! CC are worthless anywhere else but here. Perhaps having a connected wallet would help for sats zaps.
Do you have a wallet recommendation for use on a stupid little iPad?
ipad? nah...
just use CCs, are just fine.
Look at me, I run several nodes, at home and remote, using several LN wallets, accounts etc. but I do not want to attach any of them to SN account. Just using CCs is just fine.
OK. Do the wallets have to be connected 24/7 to make and receive zaps of sats? Or can it be connected intermittently? Or would a 24/7 Raspberry Pi be a better situation? Do you have some recommendations?
Sorry I got this in before your last edit.
That's not the right question you should ask.
Ask yourself: why are you on SN? To earn some sats or to say something and hang around, shitposting?
If you came with the idea of "post to earn"... forget it, is not worth it. And I can write a full blown post why (anyways I wrote several here in the past). For "post to earn" yes you will need a good node and good posts, and be on SN more than 1-2h/day.
If you came just to hang around have fun and discussions stuff with others, learn from each others, post meme and shit, then CCs are just fine. Do not complicate it more than is need it. This is "pay to post".
Ok, I get it. Perhaps CCs are fine for the moment. I need to get a node going on one of my machines or more than one.
Quick question: If an attached wallet is offline at the time daily rewards are issued, those sats will not become cc's, correct? They will become sats credits, that can be withdrawn once the wallet is functional again, correct?
Yes :)
Thank you for taking the time to help allay some folks' concerns.
Thanks. Personally I think this CC credits is overblown. People hate change. I haven’t notice much overall difference with my SN experience.
Thank you! I saw a lot of negative comments and posts against CC's. This post will definitely help everyone. I already mentioned that I don't see any difference because with CC's, I could do what I can do with Sats here.
I CANT READ
THIS IS PROBABLY MARXISM, NOT SURE THO
I've never read Marx. Was he big on amazon gift cards or something?
“Let the ruling classes tremble at the Cowboy Credit. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win."
Explain it again, like I am 5
cowshit credits = shitcoin
implemented because some users are too lazy to attach a ln wallet
coinos takes 10 clicks to setup, THERES NO EXCUSE
yes pls
I LOVE COWBOY CREDITS.
I personally have nothing against them.
Let me zap you some CCs for that -- THANKS!
There's no differenceThere's no difference
doesn't make ANY sense to me
i want to zap & get zapped in real sats, not with this Credits shit
if the user can't bother to have a LN wallet then he does not need to have a zap button next to his name OR make all zaps go straight to the rewards pool / devs donations. i do not want my real sats to convert to credits shitcoin, nor do i want to receive credits
anyone supporting credits :
You selfish little shit head.
This is k00b watching SN stackers how they use and understand CCs
https://video.nostr.build/eed50910e54e3ce591369d48d527af7b6e558ac67217348381480179224639e5.mp4
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Key points:
Thank you!
👍
I like this post more than the other “Q&A tuned” post written in a way “what is going to happen? -> nothing”
@k00b - when you guys catch your breath. It would be good to update the FAQ’s for new comers-
What is Stacker News?
Stacker News is a forum (like Reddit or Hacker News) where you can earn sats for creating or curating content. Rather than collecting “upvotes” that are not redeemable or transferable on Reddit or Hacker News, on Stacker News you can earn sats.
This explain everything. That's genius! Thanks @k00b @ek
Thank you for this summary, helpful to understand all cases when sending sats can fail
I thought it was very thorough also.
Thanks for this, I was very confused about the CCs
It's an excellent way to clear up the madness that this Vaquero credits thing has brought, my only doubt so far is how do I send credits? I have received them, but I still don't know how to send them.
Incredible, so much to learn from SN about cowboy existence. Keep it up.
As evolution never stops the stackerNews devs never stop too and I like it. That's why I love what you did and how you improve this society of soulmates
Thanks for this entry. Ever since I recently joined SN, I’ve been wondering about what these cowboy credits are. I’ve only joined in Janz
Creating a lighting channel that is well balanced on Alby hub with SN is not possible right now as bad as I know. It only allows you to open channels with certain LSP‘s to receive liquidity. Consider signing up with them, SN.
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zaps incentives users to create good content
with the current Cowboy Credit system, some users wont bother to create 'good content' because most of the zaps they will get will be in a worthless shitcoin instead of real sats
That was a short quit.
Time will tell, but content quality seems up not down. We concluded somewhere in this thread that given the rapid decay of cowboy credits for spenders, the people unhappiest with this change are people who don't spend and are mostly here to extract so accumulate enough CCs to rage (while those of us that spend a lot end up with close to zero CCs ... I have 5 right now and I'm just engaging like normal).
So, I'd wager a counter-hypothesis that CCs encourage the most difficult to encourage positive behavior, spending, and the change will be net generative.
Giving feedback on the system/feature that made me quit doesn't invalidate my quitting.
I know. I was just saying hello in a playful way.
I knew lockdowns had become real when a previously silent window began "greeting" me across the best cool evening air.
What the fuck, town? That window had no evidence of humanity for so long I began liking the draft, and now you cast a pod unto the sacred weather with some bullshit "hey guys, today we're gonna talk about" slam