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It's been one year since I began my campaign to get stackers to zap more: #287074.
I've made several such appeals based on how zapping benefits the zapper indirectly by supporting the territories they like (#614066 ), rewarding the kind of content and behavior they want to see (#523858), and reducing spam (#621288).
I also described how incentive problems in the reward system might lead to pathological zapping behavior (#473181) and why it's not in Stackers' best interest to game the rewards system (#546904).

Zapping More to Reduce Gaming of the Leader Board

There have been a few instances of people clearly gaming the rewards system by correctly predicting which posts will become top posts and zapping them very shortly after they've been posted (clearly too quickly to have actually read the post). I'm not particularly bothered by this, but I know some stackers are.
What these gamers are doing is exploiting an inefficiency in how the rest of us are behaving. In previous discussions about this, I made the point that this behavior is self-correcting. That was based on basic econ logic about profits tending to zero when there are no barriers to entry (basically, someone else will try to zap posts immediately, too, and the gamers will cannibalize themselves).
One way to resolve that inefficiency is to zap faster, but another is to zap more. Zapping faster may not be feasible if you actually want to read posts before zapping them (although you can sort on recent if you're not already doing that to catch posts earlier). However, as I've been harping on for a year now, zapping more is often in the Stacker's own interest anyway.
The reason these gamers are able to fly up the leader board with relatively few sats zapped is because they're getting to the top of the "top post zapper" rankings. The leader board rankings are based on where stackers rank in four separate categories: top posts, top comments, zapping top posts, and zapping top comments. It is also non-linear: i.e. the difference between 1st and 2nd in a category is greater than the difference between 5th and 6th. The gamers are essentially ranking 1st in one category and last in all the others, but that's sufficient to make it high up the leader board and reap significant rewards.
The threshold for ranking 1st in zapping top posts would be higher if the rest of us were zapping top posts more (and zapping them quicker). At the very least, that would mean those trying to game the system would also have to zap more to hold onto their place, which would mean more rewards for the rest of and less net benefit for them.

TL;DR

If you don't like seeing people gaming the leader board, zapping more will make it harder for them, while getting more sats to the creators you like and netting you some more rewards. It's win-win-lose, but you don't like the loser.
One thing is sure that less posts are seeing 'zero' these days. I think it's because everyone anticipates a good performance for the post based on his perception. This is kind of fun and better for SN I believe.
Talking about early zapping, I think it's good. Everyone's efforts should be appreciated. Also, I don't think that only the early zapping to a top post can rank someone very high on the leaderboard, except for a slow day. If more Stackers are engaged on SN on any given day, the early zapper advantage subsides automatically.
For a few times on SN, I've zapped aone or more top posts before everyone else, but only because of that, I never ranked higher. I did rank higher only when I've a top 10 or tpp 20 post, one or two top comments, early zapping (may or may not be the first one but early), avoiding shit posts.
I also think that we are exaggerating early zapping for SN.
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This is a pretty well known issue that has been confirmed k00b.
It's not that zapping a single top post early (within seconds) will shoot you up the leader board. What some of these people are doing is zapping any likely top post very quickly with a small number of sats.
That's the most efficient way to rank high in post zapping. It only has a dramatic effect if it's done persistently, because the reward isn't very high unless you rank 1st.
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What some of these people are doing is zapping any likely top post very quickly with a small number of sats.
Have you seen 1 Sat zap to many post by someone? That was just ridiculous!
The postive effect as I already said is we're getting almost every post zapped. Zapping is done on more posts now than it was done before. I think now when everyone knows it more Stackers are trying it and not to mention some who pretend to be 'Haters' of this trend have been doing it.
I strongly believe that there's no need to overstress 'the early zapping does this or that'. Why I'm saying this because I haven't seen more than a couple of instances where it was indicative of 'a gamer sitting in top 10 of the leaderboard'.
It may also be that to whom we're looking as gamer has been on the top ranks for more than one reason. The reason might be that he zapped only top posts (not a single post or comment) and yes before others.
This leads me to a question.
Does zapping some low quality content lowers your leaderboard rank?
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Does zapping some low quality content lowers your leaderboard rank?
No, it just doesn't help.
I don't worry about this early zap gaming either, but I wanted to let those who are bothered by it know that if they zap posts more then it will be less pronounced.
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I see.
What would you like zaps or sats? I know you'll say zaps. If 100 stackers zap 10 sats, it still is thousand but sometimes Stackers starting with a 1000 sats.
Overall, I'm enjoying all these talks in the threads and learning on the way.
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I want thoughtful comments. The sats and zaps are much appreciated, but I'm here because there are thoughtful people to talk to.
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Hahah @Coinsreporter wisely remaining quiet in this whole thread.
I zap wisely. And hidden, not all at once. Sometimes I came back to a post after few days and zap it again. Just for fun and to fuck up the whole algo.
Leader board is misleading and useless IMHO. That's why I removed / hide myself from it. Leaderboard should be disabled totally. The game is not to be on the leader board, but to make Bitcoin useful.
I stand my ground: SN is not about playing a game of sats or zapping. Is about PAYING sats to say something. All the sats in rewards consider them as an extra or as somebody appreciate what you said.
Zap wisely because later you will regret it.
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I can agree with this. Soon sats will be worth more than we realize, especially when everyone realizes how useful it is. I knew it was you zapping like that! Some of my old content just gets zapped out of nowhere.
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FWIW... I love to go back and zap old posts.
Wait should I not be telling you this? Is there a risk in deanonymizing zaps?
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I could tell you my secret how I do that, but then I reveal an important secret here... You will have to figure it out by yourself.
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What kind of secret, Darth? My ears are perking.
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Could you give me a hint? You know, a tiny one?
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58 sats \ 2 replies \ @Taft 18 Oct
Leaderboard should be disabled totally. The game is not to be on the leader board, but to make Bitcoin useful.
I agree. In comment @k00b said that this:
Imo The biggest mistake we made was back in march when we capped rewards to the top 100. Someone getting even a few sats for the first time gives them some hope theyโ€™ll learn how to earn more #713031.
When I asked him why you don't change it, he replayed:
It's just not trivial and we have other things to do that have higher priority #713518.
I hope they will find time to change it as it was before.
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 18 Oct
That's the plan.
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We could have countless games and ways to reward stackers on SN... I even proposed a Quiz post option, where participants could earn sats for finishing the quiz. Also I proposed the Badges system, that could start as incentive and later in trading badges...
The options are many, but the leader board is only confusing and create useless friction and false hope for earning sats.
Making the game harder will make people to appreciate more each fucking sat they get. Now is too simple to earn sats on SN, and is wrong.
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That would probably be the ideal attitude, but the existence of rewards will attract people who only want the rewards.
I take zaps to be the measure of how much people appreciate what you said and rewards as the measure of how much you helped SN.
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will attract people who only want the rewards.
Opportunists that will never have anything good to say. Just assmilkers. People should come to SN to learn more about Bitcoin and zap the answers they found helpful (wisely).
For me even 1 sat as 1 upvote worth enough for my post. That means the reader comprehend what I said. If they really want to reward me with more sats, so be it, but do it separately.
As I said here #722919: upvotes should be separated from zaps (sats).
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Number of upvotes are counted separately from sats zapped and they're given more weight, but both count. That seems right to me.
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This is where SN algo is wrong. It should not be like that. One day will come a whale and zap randomly posts no matter what will be said in those posts. It could be even weird posts, porn or whatever bullshit.
And stackers will ask why those posts are on top, when should not be.
I myself I found some of my old posts zapped with a lot of sats, even that were not worth it. Some anon is doing that few time per month.
You have been warned. I stand my ground: zaps must be separated from upvotes algo.
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Money playing a role in content discovery is why I am here.
The whole internet has been likes, seniority, censorship, and nepotism because there never was a way to make people put some skin in the game.
It's exciting to see what can happen when money is tied very closely to the rating mechanism to determine what rises to the top.
Can it be gamed? Sure. Costco can sell $1.50 hotdogs at a loss, too. But the question is will this be better than the other ways of doing it. We're finding out zap by zap.
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I don't think so. A stacker like that would have a low trust score, so their zapping wouldn't move the needle much on posts. Also, zap size is counted logarithmically, so it becomes very expensive to elevate content as a single zapper.
A handful of downzappers could take down such a whale.
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Do not underestimate them... there are many here with multiple accounts, playing around.
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That's what the 30% sybil fees are for.
If only we could unveil all of them. I think gaming the system is wrong, but morals are different for each person.
But it also works the same way with downzapping. If a person has multiple accounts, and then downzaps on the same post, wouldnt that be unfair?
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That is a potential problem. I think it matters whether their multiple accounts have high global trust, though.
I would guess this is why discernment is so important.
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This is an interesting concept.
Do old articles that get zapped a lot show up on recents? Or just on the top?
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No, are just zapped.
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61 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 18 Oct
I agree. I come here for high signal news and discussion. Zaps are a byproduct and help motivate people.
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I have zappe what I can on every post to which I reply, however, I am not seeing zaps coming my way on many posts. I now think that the zaps I have given in the past are nothing more than sunk costs. I think I should align myself with the non-zappers and let the leader board and the โ€œrewardsโ€ take care of themselves. There is no need for original posts under the current system, is there? Perhaps not zapping is zapping wisely, no?
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You might also have come to terms that many people here are likely already getting an avalanche of trump/harris information outside of SN and likely don't wanna see more of it here. I for one only zap things i wanna see more of.
But who knows, these people might come after all, so you might end up being the source people trust for this kind of information in the future.
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I intentionally stop following partisan political news every October, so that's one less potential consumer right here.
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Perhaps more than one, however, how do you figure out where to put your money, when you donโ€™t know who would restrict all cryptocurrencies, except for the handy-dandy CBDC that everyone is simply clamoring for? Bitcoin?!?! Outlawed!! Then where would you be?
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I follow this stuff closely (or at leas I used to) up until October. As we approach the election stories become less accurate and more manipulative, so I just ignore it all. I already no what I think and any truly important story can wait for November.
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Huh???? The stories about politics are never accurate and were always very manipulative. No, the truly important stories may not be able to wait until November. NATO or nuclear? Troops on the ground in Israel? More billions for war wastage but not for NC? I donโ€™t think some of these stories are advantaged by our ignorance. In some of these cases, ignorance is not bliss.
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The stories about politics are never accurate and were always very manipulative.
It's a difference in degree, not kind.
No, the truly important stories may not be able to wait until November
I already no what I think about the topics on the table. If something crazy happens, like a nuclear strike, then I'm sure I'll hear about it. It's not likely to change my opinion about anything, though.
I recommend trying it. You'll find when November rolls around that you really didn't need to get all worked about any of this stuff in the moment. If the same level of attention were being paid throughout the year, there would be even more things to be outraged about.
I understand not wanting to stand in the deluge of partisan propaganda and kaka. I thought there was a different point of view of the posts I was making. However, I guess it is not unique enough.
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some posts deserve to be zapped. By "zap wisely" I am not saying to not zap at all.
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Perhaps no zaps is zapping wisely in an environment where there is no reciprocity.
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I don't believe in reciprocity. I believe in truth and good content. I will not zap you because you zapped me in the past. I will zap you because I will consider that your post deserve it.
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Do you think there will be zaps of sats when there doesnโ€™t appear to be reciprocity? Without some reciprocity, perhaps the whole zap system will go down in flames. If you get so finicky on zapping, you may find that there are no posts and comments to zap.
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You see, I saw many here zapping 10-20-30-50 sats on any comment, just for the sake of zapping, with the mindset that if they zap on each comment they see will get more in daily rewards.
That's wrong behavior and they will regret each sat thrown away. In the beginning I was also zapping each reply that people gave me. But then I realized that those zaps are for nothing, for a simple reply, for example like you just did "Understood"... is like a confirmation. So I really need to zap you because you understood? No.
Ah you came back and with a reply where you explain something and that answer is useful for me or I like it, then yes, you get my sats.
As I said: zap the good content and zap wisely, not erratically. Damn it are real sats these... WE ARE PAYING FOR EACH POST OR COMMENT HERE. This is what really matters, but people still don't get it.
The leaderboard is a nice game, but you should be aware that you are playing around with real sats, not crap shitcoins.
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I've gone through the same evolution on zapping replies.
Thank you for the useful reply. Donโ€™t zap this.
It can take a little while for people to start following you, especially if you're mostly posting links. Look at Rsync's posts and he's been doing it a long time.
I've also noticed that you often post later in the evening and at night, which can be kind of dead.
I often advise people to hang out in the comments until stackers get to know them. Then their posts will get more traction.
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Ok, I can see what you say is reasonable. Late at night is when I can post, even if it is dead. I will look at some of Rsyncโ€™s posts, soonest.
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I just meant that he posts dozens of links everyday and many of them don't get zapped at all.
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because many times he post kind of garbage.
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One man's trash is another man's treasure. Unfortunately for him, those men are not here.
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Yes, garbage for those that have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear.
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I think I am posting items that will be of interest to people in those special posting areas. Econ for economics and etc. I have become to think that people do not often read the articles themselves, but comment on what they see in the post, itself.
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Good post. Fully agreed. I have both read and heavily zapped the post thus invoking both strategies of zapping early and zapping heavy.
Also I am trying to get my pistol back so I am invoking a degree of reckless zapping as well until it does.
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Someday, I'll find one of those pistols or horses. It's kind of fun, after having the cowboy hat for so long, to not know how to find or keep things again.
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Have you attached an external wallet for sending and receiving yet? Once you do that you will get the horse and pistol after some regular activity but I am not exactly sure how to keep it. What I thought I knew turned out to be wrong.
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I'm having weird issues with Alby Hub and my attached receiving wallet isn't working.
When it rains it pours.
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Did you follow supratic's guide?
I didn't bother with Alby after it screwed up my stacker sport nostr account. I still can't log in.
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I was following SimpleStacker's guide, but my weird Alby Hub problem is that Stacker News isn't showing up in their App Store tab for me. That would prevent me from following supratic's guide, too.
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Turns out I can get back into the stacker sports nostr account. I just tried and it worked.
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That's good. I had some issues with getAlby's login credentials, but I've generally been happy with Alby Hub.
I need to get them, too. I actually need to send out my sats so that I can private message people. I have been wanting to, but worried about where I would send the lightning to. Since I am not as familiar with it than other people.
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87 sats \ 2 replies \ @yoshi 18 Oct
I honestly always forget to zap.
I wonder if there could be a UI improvement to make it even easier to zap? What if we could double tap anywhere on the comment to zap as opposed to the small bolt? Similar to liking an Instagram post.
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It's a pretty easy habit to fall into. I don't think a major UI change is required.
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Habits are easier to form when they are easier to do. But maybe youโ€™re correct, it ultimately would need to be tested to conclude if you are however.
I wouldnโ€™t consider it major either as the code change wouldnโ€™t be significant. I donโ€™t know the code but I would assume a simple JavaScript adjustment to utilise the entire <div>.
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The other day k00b said something that puzzled me. I can't find it now, but it was something like, whoever zaps first gets ranking points almost the same as the OP. Depending on the amount of the zap. Which led me to conclude that if you don't want someone to overtake you on the leaderboard you have to zap them big time. This is really incredible.
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He might have been getting at the fact that top posts and top zapper of top posts count the same in the reward algorithm. Being top of one is worth the same as being top of the other.
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Thats interesting, where was that? I have to read the posts and follow along.
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I can't remember, but you can ask k00b directly.
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I think this will help.
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Thank you for weighing in. Your opinion on this obviously carries substantial weight.
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I havent seen you around in a while!
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Invisibility spell - I've been around.
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Zap more posts/comments or zap more sats, or both?
This may be the first time I understood the mechanics of the Leaderboard - four categories etc
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Zap the content you like, but zap it more.
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I also didnt know too much about the categories. I just comment to what I like, and that gets me where I should be.
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Wait for the CC's and you'll see the stackers zapping more!
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My offer is still open for business.... #723069 ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
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Nobody wants to keep cc's! You'll have to spend them to get the daily rewards. wait and see ... @remindme in 21 days ๐Ÿค 
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I don't know. Territory owners might buy them at a discount for cheap rent, cheap boosting, etc.
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If you have an attached wallet, will you be able to do that?
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I thought we would have two balances?
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Correct, but I'm not sure you get to choose which to spend from. k00b had a post describing how he intends it to work and it sounded like real sats will be used whenever possible.
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Is simple: I gave him the CCs inside SN, he gave me his sats outside of SN.
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That's the other option I was thinking about.
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Yes, this would work. But you would have to trust the other person. I can see the potential for scams to happen.
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As i said: use Robosats, Mostro or any other p2p exchange with escrow / hold invoice. You put the offer in Robosats and say: payment method CC from SN. You can put whatever you want there. Seems that you are not using too much bitcoin, buying and selling...
@DarthCoin figured out the mechanics. I need to see it to understand it.
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Since it hasn't even been programed yet, I don't see how anyone could have it figured out already.
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Don't try to cloud the issue with facts.
I think he talk about how we could exchange the CC for sats, using Robosats or any other p2p exchange. Or simply trust.
Establishing a secondary market for CCs could be a game changer. Time will reveal the full extent of its potential.
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Wont 1CC equal 1sat?
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 18 Oct
Free market. What is worth more to you? A real sat, or a cowboy credit?
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I guess it will all depend on how things are handled here. I want to see how things will work out. CCs and Sats, the first week will be a ride.
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depends on the demand. Is free market.
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Interesting. Well, I will be using CC for a while. Guess we will have to wait and see how it goes.
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You'll have to spend them to get the daily rewards.
You really think I am on SN for the daily rewards?
If I would want to take more than 50% of all daily rewards, I could do it very easily... But I am not here for that.
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You really think I am on SN for the daily rewards?
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I know you don't hang around sats.
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what about me? lol
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not sure! Ahahah
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hahahahaha
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You specifically, I know you got in BTC early enough not to care about sats like most of the people here. But your posts carry weight. With great power comes great responsibility.
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Great post. I have been wondering how the leaderboard works and this helps me understand
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I'm glad. I love mechanism design and k00b's leader board is a treasure trove of incentives to unpack.
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I've never understood it very well. But I know when I participate and contribute, it comes back to me.
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I believe the goal is for it to work that way. If the rewards system is properly designed, then all people need to know is that they get more rewards for contributing more to SN.
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Programming it must have been difficult.
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The truth is that the recent changes that will come into effect in November have me somewhat confused...๐Ÿค” on the other hand, since I have only been on S.N for a short time, I think it is a matter of time and carefully reading the information published here and I am sure I will adapt!!! In no other network, if you can respectfully call me that, am I going to get information as valuable as what is published here on S.N๐Ÿ“š and I think that learning is essential for me... ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ’ช
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There will be lots of posts helping people get their wallets attached, as we approach Guy Fawkes Day.
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Well, actually, thanks to the information! I've already managed to attach my wallet! ๐Ÿ’ชโ˜บ๏ธ Now I'll be very attentive to read more articles and thus continue on S.N's path๐Ÿ™‚ Thanks ๐Ÿซ‚
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 18 Oct
I haven't paid much attention to the leaderboards. Do they earn more because they're ranked higher?
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Yeah and consequently everyone below them earns less, which I think is the source of animosity.
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I agree with a lot that is said here. I was thinking, maybe the higher you are on the leadership list, the more the article is delayed before being shown to you? If you were high on the leadership board, and the article shows 10 mins after everyone else has seen it, wouldnt it even out the playing field? Especially for those gaming they system, they would have to post valuable comments instead if they wanted to stay above others.
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I dont think it matters how late the article comes out for the people that actually use SN for its purpose. Even having an article come out 10 mins late, I dont think would hurt those people because they will still zap and offer quality comments.
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Your comment actually did make me think of a possible improvement that doesn't handicap anyone.
All zaps in the first 10 minutes could count the same as the earliest zaps. That removes whatever disproportionate advantage people are taking advantage of and gives everyone enough time to read the post.
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30 sats \ 5 replies \ @Taft 18 Oct
Great post, as always! I zapped it after reading. ๐Ÿ˜ I think your advice is good, even though I don't like the idea of this ranking (I'd prefer it to be the way it was before March), but since this is the way things are, it will be good to take your observations into account.
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This is how it was before March, too (at least, sometimes it was like this). I remember them playing around with only rewarding zapping or only rewarding posts/comments, too. I actually preferred only rewarding zapping, but that didn't win out.
What was different before March was that you knew what your rank in each area was.
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36 sats \ 3 replies \ @Taft 18 Oct
Not exactly. There was no leaderboard, and the rewards were distributed among more than 100 stackers.
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That's right. Both of those things were different too. I liked knowing my rank in each thing, but I don't think we need to know everyone else's.
I understood the logic of cutting off the tail of the distribution, but it probably shouldn't be fixed at 100. There should at least be an adjustment for how active stackers are and how many stackers are active.
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27 sats \ 1 reply \ @Taft 18 Oct
but it probably shouldn't be fixed at 100.
Yes, exactly.
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I always thought it would be interesting if it was just invisible. Im not saying take it away all together, but just not let it be seen. Then people would post and everything, without trying to work the leadership board.
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